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I agree. But I can imagine many people who do celebrate a lot of religious festivals and who consider that it is important to do so. Some of these might well consider that it is an affront to God and blasphemy, pretty much, to do it on the wrong day. So they might argue that it is vitally important to be sure you celebrate these events on the right day.
People, I have already shown earlier in this thread that the meal in John's gospel is the same meal shown in the synoptic gospels. Rather than me having to repeat myself, just go back and read my posts. If you are unwilling to do so, then don't.
RESPONSE:
Since you present assertions without evidence, we don't take your posts that seriously. So rereading them is not the best use of our time.
Only the evidence counts. Not your convoluted explanations trying to maintain the inerrancy of scripture.
In sum: in John's gospel, Jesus doesn't attend a Passover meal with his apostles as described in the synoptic gospels.
What if we were to show and prove 100% that Jesus died on Wednesday or Thursday, what would that accomplish?
What would we do after that?
Would we have to stop observing good Friday after that?
Would we have to stop talking about Palm Sunday after that?
Would anyone even believe you and want to make changes themselves?
RESPONSE:
It would demonstrate that "inspired, inerrant" scripture was wrong as to Matthew's claim that Jesus fulfilled the Jonah "three days and three night" prophecy.
And then readers might start reading the scriptures critically and discover many other errors in what is claimed by some to be inspired and inerrant.
Then the question becomes, did God really author scripture.
You seem to be confused. I do not say that the beginning of Sabbath (Shabbes) is on Sunday morning. Sabbath Saturday begins a few minutes before sunset on the friday, all that night, the dawn and sabbath day (which is when according to Matthew the guards watched over the tomb. And it ends after dark when three stars are seen in the sky. That is when Saturday and the Sabbath ends and Sunday (the first day of the week) begins. All that night the guards are watching. Dawn (half - way through Sunday, and after the sabbath - half a 'day' after - the angel rolls back the tomb -door, the women arrive etc. I agree that 'epiphosco' can also mean 'beginning', but you suggest yourself that Sunday had long begun, on the previous evening (when the stars appeared), so it cannot be the beginning of the new day, it has to be 'dawn'.
Now, does that make sense to you or not?
Now as to Matthew 28, the women arrive towards the dawn of the first day of the week. Sunday has half gone, having begun the previous evening, when three stars were visible in the sky and Sabbath/Saturday ended. You are correct that the action appears to show that the women saw the angel descend and roll back back the stone and talk to them. The problem is of course that there is no mention of this in the other gospels, They say the stone was removed and Luke says that they were bewildered by this. After which 'two men' appeared. These all fit poorly with Matthew.
This doesn't alter the question of how many days in the tomb. Indeed, if you say that it was still Sabbath (Saturday) - which I believe I have shown cannot be the case, with your own mention of the appearance of the stars, then means that Jesus can only be in the tomb two days, even if we count Friday, and if Sabbath starts before sunset, there isn't much of that.
Indeed, if you want Jesus to rise on the Sabbath Saturday, then he is pretty close to rising on the same day he was shut in it. One day, not three.
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Now, as to the dates, The first day of Passover (it lasts a week) begins on the end of the14th day (friday) of Nisan (matches our April) and ends at dusk on the 15th day (Saturday) -according to the gospels, as it apparently was on the Sabbath. So Jesus really can only rise in the 15th of Nisan (Saturday, in this story) or the night of the 16th, Sunday, before dawn. I do not see how it can be stretched to the 17th.
So long you believe the dawn in Mat 28:1 is the sunrise Sunday morning, you do not get it. You do not consider the first sentence. In the end of the Sabbath (KJV). The Greek can be translated with after, but is misleading, because the meaning here is in the end or late on the Sabbath (Vulgate: vespere sabbati). Mary Magdalene and the other Mary visited the tomb when it was still Sabbath, it was twilight and not dark as you say, and it was not yet Sunday, as it began to dawn, the day was approaching or beginning, the 3 stars were not yet seen in the twilight, that is IMO the correct interpretation and there was one commentary that supported this view, I cannot find it any more, but than he came to the conclusion that the Sabbath is now the Sunday of the Christians. So he excused himself so to speak.
The angel said, that Jesus at that time was already risen and not in the tomb any more. That means, Jesus did rose at Sabbath.
Nowhere in the bible it says Jesus was crucified on Friday, you assume it, I assume on Wednesday and 3 days after Wednesday is Sabbath.
You have in the gospel different meanings for Passover. According to Lev it is the feast or day of Passover, the 14th of Nisan. The week in Lev you call Passover is in Leviticus the Feast of unleavened bread, it begins with a Sabbath at the 15th of Nisan. According to Leviticus the Sacrifice is on the 14th of Nisan. That is the Passover according to the bible. The gospel writers were also using traditional words for passover. Mark 14:12 calls the 14th of Nisan also day of unleavened bread, because the tradition calls also the 14th of Nisan day of unleavened bread, and the whole 8 days Passover or the 14th of Nisan preparation for the Passover. To make the confusion more, the Passover meal is also called Passover. You have to know Jewish custom and out of context you know which day it is.
Jesus eat the Passover one day earlier, not at the beginning of the 15th of Nisan, but on Tuesday after sunset, when the 14th of Nisan began. You can find still the tradition in orthodox churches to fast and eat the Holy Supper on Tuesdays before Easter.
I am sorry. You still seem to be confused. There is no way that I can accept that the 'three stars' heralds the approach of dawn. It is what announces the approach of night. If Sabbath ended (and the 1st day of Passover, but not the week, of passover of course), then it had to be on the previous evening, and so the Sunday night was behind them.
This is so evident that translation -shopping is not going to help you.
Thus, Jesus could have risen of the previous day (saturday), but that would cause problems for the 'after three days' prophecy. It would make it close if he rose on the night, or indeed as soon as the angel opened up. either way, it is on Sunday, after the sabbath and 1st day of the week.
Yes, I do assume that the Sabbath was a Saturday. Apart from coinciding with the 1st day of Passover, there is nothing mentioned as special about it. Thus it is reasonable to say the day of preparation was Friday. I am always open to other views on it, though.
P.s I recall the mention of 1st day of the week, I recall having a research of that last year and it was surprisingly difficult to get confirmation, but the viewpoint I got was that Judaism had Sunday as the 1st day of the week - which would make the day of preparation a Friday . It would hardly work as the 1st day of the passover week, if anyone was thinking of that.
The chronology I proposed does seem to fit without problem (except from prophecy, perhaps) but other proposals do appear to have problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior
RESPONSE:
Since you present assertions without evidence, we don't take your posts that seriously. So rereading them is not the best use of our time.
Only the evidence counts. Not your convoluted explanations trying to maintain the inerrancy of scripture.
In sum: in John's gospel, Jesus doesn't attend a Passover meal with his apostles as described in the synoptic gospels.
Just to clarify, while John 13. 1 says the Passover was approaching the 'last supper' itself was not called the passover feast. The synoptics also say that the passover was to be prepared and eaten in the house in the city and it looks like this is taken to be the Passover feast itself. There are problems with being the First day, when the lambs were sacrificed as that is the day before the passover is eaten, isn't it?
However, I just wanted to ask whether you accepted (passover or not) that the 'last supper' of John and that described in the synoptics are referring to same event? Or not? as I should have a real problem thinking of two different events.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-12-2014 at 08:04 AM..
I agree. But I can imagine many people who do celebrate a lot of religious festivals and who consider that it is important to do so. Some of these might well consider that it is an affront to God and blasphemy, pretty much, to do it on the wrong day. So they might argue that it is vitally important to be sure you celebrate these events on the right day.
I am not one of those people, by the way.
We can do here on earth what we want, God knows all our motives, so long we do not know or are ignorant, it is not as serious as knowing and not doing. In the end it is just a matter of love. Jesus has to be the center of our life. Days, food or doctrine, that are not important for salvation, should not be important as some think, but this is just a forum of debate, not so serious, sometimes funny in my eyes what Christians believe. Have a good laugh and go on. Do not get angry or judge, do not loose your peace.
I assume that Passover gets its name from the Lord's midnight "passing over" of the Israelite's homes. Now, what calendar day was this - the 14th or the 15th? I think the majority opinion is that it was the 15th. However, could it have been the 14th? Is there any scripture that absolutely, positively precludes a 14th passing over of the Lord? Exodus 12:6 says that the killing of the animal was to be done at twilight on the 14th. Is there any scripture that absolutely, positively precludes twilight from meaning the period of time from sundown to dark at the beginning of the 14th?
It is the name of the game that we are always having to explain points over and over again. However, nobody is denying that the 'meal' (you are referring to the 'last supper, I assume) is the same as described in the synoptics - before they all troop off to Gethsemane. Your remark seems irrelevant to the discussion.
Mike...thank you for your explanation and pretty presentation slide- show pictures, but what is actually the relevance? I cannot believe that anyone seriously doubts that, differences or not John's Last supper is the same event as the Last supper in the synoptics. Is anybody saying that they weren't?
........
While I wonder whether a 'which day' thread should be hived off from a 'Passover' thread, I note the point AW made that not all Sabbaths are Saturdays.
However, al through the gospels, the sabbath is referred to without any other explanation, and it is surely the normal 'saturday' sabbath they have in mind.
I would be inclined to take it that a Saturday Shabbes is what we get in the gospel, if no explanation is made that it was some uncommon type of Sabbath. Apart from it coinciding with Passover day - a 'sabbath of sabbaths' and as AW says, a day of great solemnity, though of course, in Jewish terms a Passover sabbath cannot be more 'Holy' than a Sabbath itself.,
The point that the meal is not specifically called the passover meal is well taken. There is no paschal lamb -shank. Just bread and wine. Now Jesus and his lads are there specifically for the passover, but it lasts a week. It is not impossible to argue that they intended to eat passover together in that place in two days' time (note that they were apparently all occupying the place later, after the resurrection) but the last supper was not it.
I doubt whether it would make any difference at all. There are those who might argue that we are all toast, because none of us are celebrating the resurrection on the right day.
For me it is simply sorting out what the Gospels can possibly be saying that actually works - simply to arrive at a useful working - text, because working with a story that cannot work bollixes us in any discussion right from the start.
Ancient Warrior did deny that the meal in John's gospel is the Passover meal, both here and way back at the beginning of this thread. And judging from his response to my most recent reply to him, he still does.
I started this thread back in Feb. 2012 because the poster 'Whoppers' had claimed in another thread that the Gospel of John contradicts the synoptic gospels by presenting Him being crucified the day before Passover. And one of his arguments concerned the nature of the meal that Jesus ate in John. Go back and read his posts on this thread. Though out the years there have been many who think that John has Jesus being crucified before Passover because they think that the meal that Jesus ate in John was not the Passover meal. You can google that information.
Those pictures relate to the verses under which they appear. Luke 22:39 doesn't say the Garden of Gethesame. It says that Jesus went to the Mount of Olives, so I explained that the garden of Gethesame is at the foot of the Mount of Olives and showed a picture of the garden. Likewise with John 18:1 which merely says that Jesus crossed the Kidron valley where there was 'a garden', without giving the name of the garden, and so I showed a picture of the Kidron valley and the Garden of Gethsemane.
Concerning the Sabbath, it was not a regular Sabbath. It was a high Sabbath - John 19:31, as opposed to a regular weekly Sabbath. A high Sabbath is one of the annual Sabbaths related to one of the holy days. The Passover day proper on Nisan 14 precedes the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is a seven day Feast which begins on Nisan 15. Both the first and last day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread are Sabbath days. I already covered this as well.
The day of the week on which Jesus was crucified depends on the year in which Jesus was crucified. If Jesus was crucified in 30 AD. then He was crucified on a Wednesday. If He was crucified in 33 AD. then He was crucified on a Friday.
Nisan 14, 3790 (the Jewish month and year) was Wednesday April 3, 30 AD.
Nisan 14, 3793 (the Jewish month and year) was Friday April 1, 33 AD.
30 AD. and 33 AD. are the two most likely years in which Jesus was crucified according to most scholars.
It is true that the topic of this thread is that all four gospel accounts show the Jesus was crucified on Passover. The day of the week on which He was crucified (Wed., Thur., or Fri.) really is not the topic.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-12-2014 at 09:28 AM..
I assume that Passover gets its name from the Lord's midnight "passing over" of the Israelite's homes. Now, what calendar day was this - the 14th or the 15th? I think the majority opinion is that it was the 15th. However, could it have been the 14th? Is there any scripture that absolutely, positively precludes a 14th passing over of the Lord? Exodus 12:6 says that the killing of the animal was to be done at twilight on the 14th. Is there any scripture that absolutely, positively precludes twilight from meaning the period of time from sundown to dark at the beginning of the 14th?
Yes. The 'Passover' (Pesach) refers to the passing over of God killing the first born of the Egyptians before the Exodus. From what I read, it is always the 15th and the 14th is the day when the making ready is done. No work is done on the Passover day. There is a passover feat - three of them morning noon and evening and there is a fast..I shall have to refresh my memory, especially how it works if a Passover day falls on a Sabbath.
That is surely the idea of the High or special sabbath or 'Sabbath of sabbaths' as the Jews call it, I believe. Passover falls on a sabbath. That is the significance in the gospel story and there is no question of the dates on which it falls being changed. The 1st passover day is on 1th Nisan as usual and it happens to fall on a Saturday, Sabbath.
The passage you quote suggests to me the evening of the 14th when the Paschal lambs were slaughtered in the temple. Evening is well enough, but I gather they had to start a lot earlier to get them all done before the 14th (day of preparation) ended as dusk.
In the Gospel story, the symbolism of Jesus dying on the cross just as the Passover lambs cashed in their dinner -pails is obvious.
Now as to your last. I agree with AW that the last supper is is not the passover feast as it is too early. Passover did not begin until after the arrest, trial and crucifixion.
The only question I asked was whether AW agreed that the Last Supper in John and the synoptics was the same event. While it is true that the last supper in John is not so directly indicated as the Paschal feast, even in the synoptics, though the indication is much stronger, it could still be the place where they intended to eat the Seder feast, but it was not on that night, and couldn't be - unless Jesus had his own calendar.
Thank you for the reference to the year on which Nisan 14 fell on a Friday (which means that the Pesach 1st day would be on the sabbath - saturday. 33 AD.
I don't see why anyone would be unhappy with that, apart from those who want a Passover to fall on the wednesday before the sabbath, in which case the Saturday would still be a sabbath during the passover, but the seder feast would have been eaten before.
Could be an interesting point of discussion, and relevant. too.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-12-2014 at 09:50 AM..
It would demonstrate that "inspired, inerrant" scripture was wrong as to Matthew's claim that Jesus fulfilled the Jonah "three days and three night" prophecy.
And then readers might start reading the scriptures critically and discover many other errors in what is claimed by some to be inspired and inerrant.
Then the question becomes, did God really author scripture.
The question for me is, are the gospel in record to the crucifixion and resurrection the original writings. We have no original. The only conflict I found is with the time-sequence, all the events are true. Somebody wanted to confuse us. When the RCC openly confesses, she has changed the Sabbath to the Sunday, she certainly made the resurrection on the Sunday a case based on scripture, so till today her fraud stands. It has become tradition and that nobody can change. The bible is inspired, anyone can trust it. Man make wrong translations and interpretations, only Judaism and Catholicism are standing, above the bible, I do not know others.
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