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~ Becasue churches have accepted
the false doctrine of Christ being the passover lamb?
More and more churches are worshiping Him
in a so called passover meal services.
"The Lord's Supper" of Bread & Wine is now not enough!
I went to one last year.
And you should have seen the jiggs they pulled us through!
Pour salt on your plate and draw signs through it...and such nonsense!
While it may be true 'churches' are overdoing things that does not change the fact the Scriptures point to Messiah as the Passover Lamb.
In your insistence that He isn't you show your ignorance of the meaning/symbology of the first Passover. Passover has always been about redemption or a life for a life.
It was, for lack of a better way to put it, a rehersal for the Messiah. That's why John said, "behold the Lamb of God that takes away sin...."
Insisting that Messiah was not ever called the Passover Lamb shows you don't understand the 'customs' of the day regarding the passover lambs. It was the custom for the High Priests to examine the 'lambs' for 4 days making sure they were not blemishes etc and finally stating, "It is finished" showing the lambs were acceptable.
Four days before Messiah became THE Passover Lamb [and would cry, "It is finished" at the same exact moment the High Priest was declaring the same thing in regard to the passover lambs] He was 'examined.' How?
He entered the temple on the 10th of Nisan the same day the 'lambs' are brought in to be inspected. While in the temple teaching, He's being "inspected" by the elders, [Saducees, the Pharasees and Scribes] They try to catch Him in something making false accusations, even having an illegal trial which climaxes with Pilot saying, “I find no fault in Him.”
So He, THE Lamb of God; THE Passover Lamb was found to be without spot or blemish or imperfection. He was the perfect male lamb and delcared Himself to be so on the cross crying, "It is finished!"
BTW, The "lamb" was to be killed on the 14th day of Nisan and eaten later that day. Note Messiah had already died before the lambs were eaten. He died on the the *day of preparation, not on the High Sabbath which was the first day of Passover.[John 19:31]
*day of preparation was when their houses were purged of leaven [represents sin] in preparation for Passover.
“And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,” verifies Messiah, to the letter and day fulfilled this first Passover. Mark 15:42
Last edited by mshipmate; 02-26-2012 at 05:02 PM..
Reason: typos
Liberals and secular skeptics imagine contradictions where none exist.
As explained throughout this thread, the last two being #105 and 107, Passover day itself is the day of preparation for the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread which is called Passover Week.
All four Gospels teach that Jesus died on Passover day.
As shown in post #99, John used Roman time in John 19:14.
All four Gospels complement each other and each emphasizes a different aspect of Christ. The Gospels are not to be isolated from each other.
Jesus' trails continued throughout the night. Those trials ended around 6 A.M. and Jesus was crucified at 9 A.M.
This was already exlained in post #99
To the liberal mind, teaching Biblical truth is bias. The liberal mind attacks the fundamental truths of the Bible.
The opinions of the majority do not establish truth. I have no regard for the opinions of liberal and secular skeptics. Their intent is to discredit the word of God.
Passover day itself is the day of preparation for the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread.
The following is from post #105.
The word 'Passover' Can Refer to Entire Passover Season. Not just to the 14th day of the month of Nisan which was the day that Jesus was crucified.
Matthew 26:17 Now on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, ''Where do You want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?''
Mark 14:1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread was two days off; and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to kill Him;
Mark 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, ''Where do you want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?''
Luke 22:1, 7 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is called the Passover was approaching ...7] Then came the day of unleavened bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
Lev 23:5 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is is the LORD'S Passover. 6] Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you ahall eat unleavened bread.
Ezekiel 45:21 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.... 23] ''And during the seven days of the feast he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a sin offering.
And as has also been mentioned, Passover day itself which is the 14th day of the month of Nisan is the preparation day for the Feast of Unleavened Bread which begins on the 15th day of the month. Passover day is the preparation day for Passover week. In popular usage, Passover day itself was sometimes called the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, even though in a strict sense, the first day of Unleavened Bread started the day after Passover day. This is because Passover day and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are so closely related. The six verses immediately above show how closely the two are associated.
I have taken the time to show you and others that John does not contradict the other Gospels. All four show that Jesus was crucified on Passover day. I have supplied sources for what I have said, not the least of which are the Scriptures themselves.
But you are not interested in the truth. And since there is a lack of interest from others concerning this thread, I will devote no more time to it, except to refer back to posts previously written.
"Biblical scholars are out to discredit truth?"
To the contrary. They approach the subject with an open-mind, not a pre-programmed mind. But it doesn't matter - you have no respect for any of them, UNLESS they agree with you. I don't know why you quoted so many of them, if you didn't care what they thought. Oh well! These very same scholars are the ones that are translating the Bible so that you can read it, and then insist they don't know what they're doing. Nice contradiction, there. This was why the Catholic Church didn't want the Bible translated into the common tongue - it's too easy to misinterpret. Even Martin Luther, after having opposed this idea, and then seen the results first-hand, had to finally establish certain limits to the common person's readings of scripture. Perhaps you should forego all scholars, and just translate the Scriptures yourselves. But then, you would be relying on scholars again for the Greek text. Everywhere you turn, there are scholars involved in the English translation you are reading from.
This is like a layperson telling a nuclear scientist that they don't know what they are talking about, and that the layperson is better qualified to work on the reactor lol!
"You are not interested in truth" you say. Why? Because I don't agree with YOUR idea of "truth"? That's an interesting way to assess other people: my way or the highway!
You claim that the Gospels shouldn't be read independently - why? Is this a personal rule you're imposing on everyone? I wonder what the 1st Century Christians did while waiting for each Gospel to be written? Just sit around with nothing to do. "Hey, Joe - we have to wait for the other Gospels to be written. Put down that copy of the Gospel of Mark!"
Funny...
You claim that the majority opinion doesn't rule. You're correct. I agree. But this isn't mob rule or opinion without evidence - this is majority evidence presented by scholars who work closely with the text, provide translations, study original Greek fragments, and make a living out of studying these things. When there's a few people who claim the contrary - one has to wonder what their motivations are, or their qualifications. JUST because someone is in the minority, for the reverse side of the coin, doesn't make them right.
No - it appears you just think anyone disagreeing with you is incompetent. Yet your own qualifications - you have never shown. WHY are you better informed than professionals, again?
Anyways - you have provided your thoughts on the matter, and I have provided contrary thoughts. The reader will have to make up his/her own mind as to who has offered the better reading of Scripture. You are convinced that you are correct, and somehow have the "truth". I have - at least - tried to show that the issue is not as simple as one might think, and that a closer investigation of the Bible is a worthwhile venture.
The important thing here is that it is widely recognized that John conflicts the Synoptics in many areas. Trying to ignore this, by assuming that this observation is made only by liberals and skeptics, does not change anything. The very people who translate your Bibles are aware of this, and other, problems.
How is our fate or faith in God and Jesus remotely affected by the truth or falsity (or in truth ambiguity) of any of this?
It's not affected by it at all, but neither is it affected by mowing the lawn, which most people spend a lot of time doing every single week.
I see no sin in examining the Bible more closely.
Some people, however, do see a threat to their faith in a closer examination - and this is a shame. It shouldn't be that way.
Jesus did not give the passover lamb as His Body broken for you.
Messiah's bones were not broken just as the passover lambs were to have no bones broken.
They shall leave none of it unto the morning, NOR BREAK ANY BONE OF IT: according to all the ordinances of the PASSOVER they shall keep it" (Exo 12:46 & Num 9:12).
"HE KEEPETH ALL HIS BONES: NOT ONE OF THEM IS BROKEN" (Psa 34:20).
"For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A BONE OF HIM SHALL NOT BE BROKEN" (John 19:36).
So how do we reconcile 1Co 11:24 and Matt. 26:26 then?
With Paul's words in 1 Cor 10:
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Rom. 12:
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
1 Corin. 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Or, the one body of Messiah, the Passover Lamb was not broken and one body of believers is/are broken.
ETA: the word broken in Matt. 26:26 is klao and means to break, specailly the breaking of bread.
Last edited by mshipmate; 02-26-2012 at 09:39 PM..
While it may be true 'churches' are overdoing things that does not change the fact the Scriptures point to Messiah as the Passover Lamb.
In your insistence that He isn't you show your ignorance of the meaning/symbology of the first Passover. Passover has always been about redemption or a life for a life.
It was, for lack of a better way to put it, a rehersal for the Messiah. That's why John said, "behold the Lamb of God that takes away sin...."
Insisting that Messiah was not ever called the Passover Lamb shows you don't understand the 'customs' of the day regarding the passover lambs. It was the custom for the High Priests to examine the 'lambs' for 4 days making sure they were not blemishes etc and finally stating, "It is finished" showing the lambs were acceptable.
Four days before Messiah became THE Passover Lamb [and would cry, "It is finished" at the same exact moment the High Priest was declaring the same thing in regard to the passover lambs] He was 'examined.' How?
He entered the temple on the 10th of Nisan the same day the 'lambs' are brought in to be inspected. While in the temple teaching, He's being "inspected" by the elders, [Saducees, the Pharasees and Scribes] They try to catch Him in something making false accusations, even having an illegal trial which climaxes with Pilot saying, “I find no fault in Him.”
So He, THE Lamb of God; THE Passover Lamb was found to be without spot or blemish or imperfection. He was the perfect male lamb and delcared Himself to be so on the cross crying, "It is finished!"
BTW, The "lamb" was to be killed on the 14th day of Nisan and eaten later that day. Note Messiah had already died before the lambs were eaten. He died on the the *day of preparation, not on the High Sabbath which was the first day of Passover.[John 19:31]
*day of preparation was when their houses were purged of leaven [represents sin] in preparation for Passover.
“And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,” verifies Messiah, to the letter and day fulfilled this first Passover. Mark 15:42
~ Jesus broke Unleaven bread saying
this is My body broken for you take eat it.
Unleavened Bread is "The Bread 0f Affliction".
Deut.16:3
~ Jesus said He is The Bread 0f Life
that comes down from Heaven.
Manna is the Bread from Heaven
which God gave them in the wilderness.
After they came out of Egypt.
Ex.16:32
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