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~ "The Lamb 0f God" does not mean 'passover lamb'.
If it did, you could quote Scripture of it.
'the passover lamb' did not take away the sin of the Jews.
"The Lamb 0f God" takes away the sin of the world = New Deal.
Not the same Meal.
Mike is right on the matter.
Jesus is the passover Lamb who takes away the sin of the world to all who believe. That's what the passover is all about.
EX 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
EX 12:22 And you shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the basin; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
EX 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
LEV 23:5 "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. [during the day of passover still the 14th, Jesus was crucified]
LEV 23:6 And on the fifteenth day [Special Sabbath] of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days you must eat unleavened [signifying death Christ and sorrow] bread.
LEV 23:7 In the first day you shall have an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein. [the reason they took Him off the cross before the Special Sabbath began]
LEV 23:8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein."
JN 18:28 "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover."
John 13:1 Now before (still Nisan 13 before the setting of the sun at which time it became Nisan 14, the beginning of Passover ) the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.2] And during supper (the time is now later, the sun has set, it is now the beginning of Nisan 14 and Jesus is having the Passover meal), the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, 3] Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God, and was going back to God, rose from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself about.
Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary states the following.
It has generally been taken for granted by commentators that Christ's washing his disciples' feet, and the discourse that followed it, were the same night in which he was betrayed, and at the same sitting wherein he ate the passover and instituted the Lord's supper; but whether before the solemnity began, or after it was all over, or between the eating of the passover and the institution of the Lord's supper, they are not agreed. This evangelist, making it his business to gather up those passages which the others had omitted, industriously omits those which the others had recorded, which occasions some difficulty in putting them together. If it was then, we suppose that Judas went out (v. 30) to get his men ready that were to apprehend the Lord Jesus in the garden.
It is generally recognized by commentators that John 13:1 is the Passover meal.
Matthew Henry then goes on to say...
But Dr. Lightfoot is clearly of opinion that this was done and said, even all that is recorded to the end of ch. 14, not at the passover supper, for it is here said (v. 1) to be before the feast of the passover, but at the supper in Bethany, two days before the passover (of which we read Mt. 26:2-6), at which Mary the second time anointed Christ's head with the remainder of her box of ointment. Or, it might be at some other supper the night before the passover, not as that was in the house of Simon the leper, but in his own lodgings, where he had none but his disciples about him, and could be more free with them.
Dr. Lightfoot was wrong. As I have pointed out in post #59 as well as post #33, John states in John 13:21-27 that at this meal (the same meal mentioned in John 13:1), Jesus said that He would be betrayed by the one for whom He would dip the morsel and give it him.
A common detail in all four gospels concerning the Passover meal is the mention by Jesus that He would be betrayed by one sitting with Him at the meal. (Matthew 26:21-24; Mark 14:18-21; Luke 22:21-22; John 13:21-27). Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper at the Passover meal (Matthew 26:20-29)
That mention of His betrayal by Judas proves all by itself that John chapters 13 through John chapter 17 is the Passover meal.
There is more. As I have stated, John gives many details about the events which took place at the Passover meal that the other Gospels don't. As well, the other three Gospels provide details about the Passover meal that John doesn't. And therefore, all four Gospels complement each other and provide a complete description of the events which occurred at that meal.
All of what takes place between John 13:2 and John chapter 18 takes place at the Passover meal. And then in John 18:1, after the Passover meal has concluded, Jesus takes His disciples and goes over the valley of Kidron, where there is a garden. The name of that garden is mentioned in the synoptic Gospels as the garden of Gethsemane. It is there that Jesus is betrayed by Judas and arrested.
John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words (everything mentioned beginning with John chapter 13 through the end of John chapter 17), He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden (Gethsemane), into which He Himself entered, and His disciples. 2] Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place; for Jesus had often met there with His disciples. 3] 'Judas then, having received the Roman cohort, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4] Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth, and said to them, ''Whom do you seek?''
It just takes a little bit of careful reading starting with John chapter 13 and continuing through chapter 18 to understand that John is referring to the Passover meal.
What Matthew covers in one chapter - chapter 26, starting with the Passover meal in verse 20, and going through the betrayal and arrest of Jesus, and Peter's denials of Jesus, John takes six chapters (chapters 13-18) to tell because of the greater detail he goes into.
And now youre quoting ANOTHER out of date, biased commentary?
You arent noticing a pattern in this?
Matthew Henry's commentaries are usually hidden way in the back behind newer, better commentaries nowadays - but of course you have to resort to the commentaries that specifically support your antiquated view, and ignore the vast majority of other commentaries and scholarly writings that disagree with you. Convenient.
Here, let's have another go at some modern commentaries. This one is especially revealing, and expert in condensing the question:
The Last Supper
John's account of the Last Supper (cf. Mark 14:17-25) and parallels) has no story of the preparation for the Passover meal (Mark 14:12-16 and parallels), for the last meal in the Johanine version is not the Feast of Unleavened Bread but a supper given on the preceding evening (13:1) [to the Day of Preparation for the Passover]....
Jesus Arraigned
Jesus is brought to Pilate at his headquarters (praetorium), the exact location of which is disputed, early in the morning. In John's account, Jesus was condemned at about noon (19:14; cf. Mark 15:24, 33-34 and parallels) on a Friday, the Day of Preparation, just before Passover, so that the Jews refuse to enter the praetorium (John 18:28). According to the unanimous testimoy of the Synoptics, however, the Friday of Jesus' crucifixion followed the Passover meal, eaten the preceding evening. (Jesus was crucified on a Friday; the Gospels differ only with respect to the Jewish calendar.)
(Harper's Bible Commentary, James L. Mays - Editor, D. Moody Smith - Contributor to John, pp. 1066, 1072, Harper & Row, Publishers, San Fransisco, 1988)
There ya' go, Mike - nicely condensed and plain to read, without a wall of text to wade through. I know, I know - you still think you're right and have the "truth" (along with Matthew Henry and John Gills), but at least give the above a consideration. Or not - it doesn't matter.
Any further words (as were in my last quote of your post) would be an attack on another poster, according to the moderator who deleted my post.
Is it okay to agree with another poster? Or disagree? What's the deal? Is disagreeing with someone's stance on an issue an "attack"? I'm so confused on what is permissible anymore.
My purpose is to defend the word of God against the attacks lodged against it. The attacks by both liberal and secular scholars and others on the Bible serve to undermine the faith of those whose faith is weak.
My purpose in this thread is to show that the Gospel of John does not contradict the other Gospels, but rather, compliments them.
For reference purposes, my major posts on this thread are post #1, 10, 21, 33, 38, 40, 49, 59, 60, and 64.
I do hope that people will read them carefully.
~ Mike you are very deligent in scriptures.
I wish more people were.
I've studied this topic over the years as well.
Going back and forth through all the same scriptures.
But every time when people believe Jesus was crucified on 'the passover'?
It's for the very purpose of teaching that Jesus is
the new passover lamb. And if this was true?
We would not just be talking about the similarites to a few scriptures.
But, we'd be able to actually quote that He is.
When in fact, there are so very many scriptures
to be quoted which down right out weight this belief as just another Messianic Myths cooked up for Jewish converts.
I don't see that it matters this much at what point Jesus was crucified.
If people want to use those scriptures to only insure Him being crucifed
on 'the passover' then that's okay with me.
But, to then use this belief
for justifying that He became 'the (new) passover lamb'?
Then, big problems exist for understaning so many other scriptures of Christ real purpose in being "The Lamb 0f God".
~ Mike you are very deligent in scriptures.
I wish more people were.
I've studied this topic over the years as well.
Going back and forth through all the same scriptures.
But every time when people believe Jesus was crucified on 'the passover'?
It's for the very purpose of teaching that Jesus is
the new passover lamb. And if this was true?
We would not just be talking about the similarites to a few scriptures.
But, we'd be able to actually quote that He is.
When in fact, there are so very many scriptures
to be quoted which down right out weight this belief as just another Messianic Myths cooked up for Jewish converts.
I don't see that it matters this much at what point Jesus was crucified.
If people want to use those scriptures to only insure Him being crucifed
on 'the passover' then that's okay with me.
But, to then use this belief
for justifying that He became 'the (new) passover lamb'?
Then, big problems exist for understaning so many other scriptures of Christ real purpose in being "The Lamb 0f God".
Whether it mattered to the other New Testamental writers or not, it mattered to the author of the Gospel of John quite a bit. One can simply dismiss John's view, and go with one of the other Gospel's views, if that is what one chooses to do. The Gospels do not have to harmonize in the author's personal views concerning Christ. That their individual views are important, however, I think is evident in the fact that there were multiple Gospels. If only one view was needed, only one Gospel would have been needed.
John 13:1 Now before (still Nisan 13 before the setting of the sun at which time it became Nisan 14, the beginning of Passover ) the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.2] And during supper (the time is now later, the sun has set, it is now the beginning of Nisan 14 and Jesus is having the Passover meal), the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, 3] Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God, and was going back to God, rose from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself about.
Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary states the following.
It has generally been taken for granted by commentators that Christ's washing his disciples' feet, and the discourse that followed it, were the same night in which he was betrayed, and at the same sitting wherein he ate the passover and instituted the Lord's supper; but whether before the solemnity began, or after it was all over, or between the eating of the passover and the institution of the Lord's supper, they are not agreed. This evangelist, making it his business to gather up those passages which the others had omitted, industriously omits those which the others had recorded, which occasions some difficulty in putting them together. If it was then, we suppose that Judas went out (v. 30) to get his men ready that were to apprehend the Lord Jesus in the garden.
It is generally recognized by commentators that John 13:1 is the Passover meal.
Matthew Henry then goes on to say...
But Dr. Lightfoot is clearly of opinion that this was done and said, even all that is recorded to the end of ch. 14, not at the passover supper, for it is here said (v. 1) to be before the feast of the passover, but at the supper in Bethany, two days before the passover (of which we read Mt. 26:2-6), at which Mary the second time anointed Christ's head with the remainder of her box of ointment. Or, it might be at some other supper the night before the passover, not as that was in the house of Simon the leper, but in his own lodgings, where he had none but his disciples about him, and could be more free with them.
Dr. Lightfoot was wrong. As I have pointed out in post #59 as well as post #33, John states in John 13:21-27 that at this meal (the same meal mentioned in John 13:1), Jesus said that He would be betrayed by the one for whom He would dip the morsel and give it him.
A common detail in all four gospels concerning the Passover meal is the mention by Jesus that He would be betrayed by one sitting with Him at the meal. (Matthew 26:21-24; Mark 14:18-21; Luke 22:21-22; John 13:21-27). Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper at the Passover meal (Matthew 26:20-29)
That mention of His betrayal by Judas proves all by itself that John chapters 13 through John chapter 17 is the Passover meal.
There is more. As I have stated, John gives many details about the events which took place at the Passover meal that the other Gospels don't. As well, the other three Gospels provide details about the Passover meal that John doesn't. And therefore, all four Gospels complement each other and provide a complete description of the events which occurred at that meal.
All of what takes place between John 13:2 and John chapter 18 takes place at the Passover meal. And then in John 18:1, after the Passover meal has concluded, Jesus takes His disciples and goes over the valley of Kidron, where there is a garden. The name of that garden is mentioned in the synoptic Gospels as the garden of Gethsemane. It is there that Jesus is betrayed by Judas and arrested.
John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words (everything mentioned beginning with John chapter 13 through the end of John chapter 17), He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden (Gethsemane), into which He Himself entered, and His disciples. 2] Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place; for Jesus had often met there with His disciples. 3] 'Judas then, having received the Roman cohort, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4] Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth, and said to them, ''Whom do you seek?''
It just takes a little bit of careful reading starting with John chapter 13 and continuing through chapter 18 to understand that John is referring to the Passover meal.
What Matthew covers in one chapter - chapter 26, starting with the Passover meal in verse 20, and going through the betrayal and arrest of Jesus, and Peter's denials of Jesus, John takes six chapters (chapters 13-18) to tell because of the greater detail he goes into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers
And now youre quoting ANOTHER out of date, biased commentary?
You arent noticing a pattern in this?
Matthew Henry's commentaries are usually hidden way in the back behind newer, better commentaries nowadays - but of course you have to resort to the commentaries that specifically support your antiquated view, and ignore the vast majority of other commentaries and scholarly writings that disagree with you. Convenient.
Here, let's have another go at some modern commentaries. This one is especially revealing, and expert in condensing the question:
The Last Supper
John's account of the Last Supper (cf. Mark 14:17-25) and parallels) has no story of the preparation for the Passover meal (Mark 14:12-16 and parallels), for the last meal in the Johanine version is not the Feast of Unleavened Bread but a supper given on the preceding evening (13:1) [to the Day of Preparation for the Passover]....
Jesus Arraigned
Jesus is brought to Pilate at his headquarters (praetorium), the exact location of which is disputed, early in the morning. In John's account, Jesus was condemned at about noon (19:14; cf. Mark 15:24, 33-34 and parallels) on a Friday, the Day of Preparation, just before Passover, so that the Jews refuse to enter the praetorium (John 18:28). According to the unanimous testimoy of the Synoptics, however, the Friday of Jesus' crucifixion followed the Passover meal, eaten the preceding evening. (Jesus was crucified on a Friday; the Gospels differ only with respect to the Jewish calendar.)
(Harper's Bible Commentary, James L. Mays - Editor, D. Moody Smith - Contributor to John, pp. 1066, 1072, Harper & Row, Publishers, San Fransisco, 1988)
There ya' go, Mike - nicely condensed and plain to read, without a wall of text to wade through. I know, I know - you still think you're right and have the "truth" (along with Matthew Henry and John Gills), but at least give the above a consideration. Or not - it doesn't matter.
The commentary you are quoting concerning the Last Supper is wrong. I carefully explained in post #64 why John chapters 13 through 17 are the Passover meal.
The second quote concerning Jesus' arraignment is wrong also. John 19:14 does not say 'noon' . John was using Roman time. Not Jewish time. The sixth hour was 6 A.M. Some translations don't take that into account.
The quote also mentioned Mark 15:24. Mark was using Jewish time and mentioned that Jesus was crucified at the 3rd hour which was 9 A.M.
Mark 15:33 says that at the sixth hour (noon Jewish time) that darkness fell over the whole land.
Mark 15:34 says that at the ninth hour (3 P.M Jewish time) Jesus cried out with a loud voice.
Jesus was on the cross for six hours. 9 A.M to 3 P.M.
In John 19:14 Jesus had not yet been crucified but was still standing before Pilate.
John 19:14 where John mentions that it was the day of preparation for the Passover, was explained in post # 60.
~ Mike you are very deligent in scriptures.
I wish more people were.
I've studied this topic over the years as well.
Going back and forth through all the same scriptures.
But every time when people believe Jesus was crucified on 'the passover'?
It's for the very purpose of teaching that Jesus is
the new passover lamb. And if this was true?
We would not just be talking about the similarites to a few scriptures.
But, we'd be able to actually quote that He is.
When in fact, there are so very many scriptures
to be quoted which down right out weight this belief as just another Messianic Myths cooked up for Jewish converts.
I don't see that it matters this much at what point Jesus was crucified.
If people want to use those scriptures to only insure Him being crucifed
on 'the passover' then that's okay with me.
But, to then use this belief
for justifying that He became 'the (new) passover lamb'?
Then, big problems exist for understaning so many other scriptures of Christ real purpose in being "The Lamb 0f God".
Hi Pandora. The older I get, the greater my desire to learn as much Bible doctrine as possible. The only thing the believer can take with him to heaven when he dies is the content of epignosis knowledge of the word of God in his soul.
Have you considered that it is not that Jesus Christ is the new Passover Lamb, but that He is and always has been the True Passover Lamb.
Rev 13:8 'And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
All of the ritual sacrifices which Israel was required to observe pointed to the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. The observance of Passover was a part of the Mosiac Law and Jesus had to fulfill the Law in every way.
Hebrews chapter 10 teaches that the Law was only a shadow of the good things to come (Heb 10:1), and that Jesus took away the first (the Old Covenant) to establish the second (the New Covenant) (Heb 10:9).
Jesus established the Lord's Supper at the Passover meal, in which the bread represented His body, and the wine represented His blood of the New Covenant(Luke 22:20).
Hebrews teaches that it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin (Heb 10:4) but that Jesus died once for all (Heb 10:10)
John emphasized that Jesus was the Lamb of God, as in John 1:29 when he said, ''Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!''
A comparison of John 1:29 with 1 Corinthians 5:7 makes it clear that Jesus is the Passover Lamb.
1 Cor 5:7 ...For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8] Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.'
Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:7 related that Jesus Christ was our Passover who has been sacrificed while John in John 1:29 stated that Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Jesus Christ fulfilled the true meaning of the Jewish sacrifice of the Passover lamb by His death on the cross. Isa 53:7 'He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so He did not open His mouth.
To fulfill the meaning of the Passover Lamb Jesus had to be crucified on Passover day, which began the evening before when the Passover meal was eaten.
Perhaps if you think of it in terms of Jesus being the true Passover Lamb, which He is, rather then the New Passover Lamb, it will help you to understand it better.
Hi Pandora. The older I get, the greater my desire to learn as much Bible doctrine as possible. The only thing the believer can take with him to heaven when he dies is the content of epignosis knowledge of the word of God in his soul.
Have you considered that it is not that Jesus Christ is the new Passover Lamb, but that He is and always has been the True Passover Lamb.
Rev 13:8 'And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
All of the ritual sacrifices which Israel was required to observe pointed to the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. The observance of Passover was a part of the Mosiac Law and Jesus had to fulfill the Law in every way.
Hebrews chapter 10 teaches that the Law was only a shadow of the good things to come (Heb 10:1), and that Jesus took away the first (the Old Covenant) to establish the second (the New Covenant) (Heb 10:9).
Jesus established the Lord's Supper at the Passover meal, in which the bread represented His body, and the wine represented His blood of the New Covenant(Luke 22:20).
Hebrews teaches that it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin (Heb 10:4) but that Jesus died once for all (Heb 10:10)
John emphasized that Jesus was the Lamb of God, as in John 1:29 when he said, ''Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!''
A comparison of John 1:29 with 1 Corinthians 5:7 makes it clear that Jesus is the Passover Lamb.
1 Cor 5:7 ...For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8] Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.'
Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:7 related that Jesus Christ was our Passover who has been sacrificed while John in John 1:29 stated that Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Jesus Christ fulfilled the true meaning of the Jewish sacrifice of the Passover lamb by His death on the cross. Isa 53:7 'He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so He did not open His mouth.
To fulfill the meaning of the Passover Lamb Jesus had to be crucified on Passover day, which began the evening before when the Passover meal was eaten.
Perhaps if you think of it in terms of Jesus being the true Passover Lamb, which He is, rather then the New Passover Lamb, it will help you to understand it better.
~ Well Mike, Isaiah 53 does not refer to 'the passover'.
And, Jesus said He is "The True Vine".
Not the true passover lamb.
Again here's a false claim to supporting familar-scriptures as doctrine.
When unscriptural phraes are made up it detracts from scripture.
By adding to scripture.
Such as the phrase: The Bride 0f Christ.
Which is another made up phrase of false doctrine.
It's not a Quote of any Scripture either.
Jesus as "The Lamb 0f God"
is before The Throne 0f God in Heaven. - Rev.5:6
Jesus as "The Lamb 0f God" is for a marrying, not eating.
Rev.7:9,17 - Rev.19:7,9
When Jesus was in Jerusalem five days before the passover.
He said, the hour has come that
The Son 0f Man should be glorified. Most assuredly, I say to you
unless A Grain 0f Wheat Falls into the ground and dies
it remains alone, but if it dies, it produces much fruit. - John 12
144,000. 'first Fruits to God and The Lamb'. - Rev.14
Paul said, "Cleanse out the old leaven
that you may be a new lump as you are unleavened;
for our passover also has been sacrificed, even Christ.
So then let us keep the feast not with old leaven,
nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness.
But with the unleavened Bread of sincerity and truth."
1 Cor.5:7 [greek]
Paul showed them keeping the feast of Christ being sacrificed
was to them as being Unleavened Bread also.
Jesus gave His disciples Bread as His body broken for them
to partake of here in the earth. Not the flesh of a lamb.
Jesus as "The Lamb 0f God" before The Throne as if it were slain?
Is for the remission of our sins before The Father in heaven.
It which makes Jesus the mediator of 'The New Covenant'.
His blood in heaven as The Lamb 0f God.
His body on earth as Bread From Heaven to give us life here.
Forgiven in Heaven. For Life on earth.
When you teach that Jesus is the true passover lamb?
You cheapen the purpose of
'The New Covenant' in His blood as The Lamb 0f God In Heaven.
For The Bread 0f His body to given Life on earth.
If He was the true passover lamb as you say?
We would eat lamb and not bread as His body.
People keep referring scripture to me of Jesus being a lamb.
When I've not denied He is a Lamb.
So Being a Lamb is not the point.
And neither do those scripture Quote Him being a 'passover lamb'.
But we can quote Him as being "The Lamb 0f God".
Last edited by RevelationWriter; 02-24-2012 at 04:06 AM..
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