If you don't believe in Universal Reconciliation/Salvation... (testimony, punishment, women)
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If you don't believe in Universal Reconciliation/Salvation, then what do you do with verses like the following?
Luke 3:6 And all people will see God’s salvation.
1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Romans 4: 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him
Isaiah 45:22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Isaiah 26:9 At night my soul longs for You,
Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently;
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
Let me paraphrase. The people learn righteousness when God's judgments come. That is the point. And so everyone will turn back to God, every knee bow, every tongue confess - even to the point of swearing allegiance. And so in Adam all were made sinners, in Christ all will be made righteous. This is because God wills and desires to save all people. And all people will see this salvation. Thus Jesus truly is the savior of the world.
Its good news for all men, just like the angels said in Luke 2:10.
These verses are crystal clear and speak of a universal reconciliation and salvation for all men. All will return back to God. There are many more verses like this.
Now, UR believers have looked at the so-called "hell" verses, and realized they are mistranslated and misinterpreted. That leaves verses like the above telling the truth...
What do you think?
UR is for sinners and "sinners won't be allowed in the assembly of the just." "The Lord is just" so don't expect to stand in His presence.
You are teaching things you cannot understand because you disobey the command of Jesus and the Father so He makes the word like a parable you cannot comprehend.Then you convert people to your confusion and slam the gates of heaven on them so you do not enter and neither do they.
You are thinking that the resurrection is after you die in the flesh. You are mistaken. You think like man not like God, therefore he hides His face from you.Those verses are speaking of the ends of the earth when everyone who is still alive in the flesh on earth will all bow down to the Lord and swear saying "Only in the Lord are righteous deeds and power." But they will not actually say those words.They will worship the Lord in spirit and in truth.Then they will say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."
The Lord says this;
" Judgment will again be done with justice and all the upright of heart will follow it."
Stop judging by appearances and judge righteously.
"The Lord redeems the lives of His servantsno one who takes refuge in Him incurs guilt."
"The Lord has redeemed Jacob and shows His glory through Israel".
"Walk in the light while you have it or darkness will come over you."
"Once you have the light keep faith in the light and you will become a child of light."
I do nothing on my own, I judge as I hear and my judgment is just because I am not seeking my own will but the will of the Lord who sent me.
UR is for sinners and "sinners won't be allowed in the assembly of the just." "The Lord is just" so don't expect to stand in His presence.
Not sure what your point is with "UR is for sinners".
Do you realize Christ came to save sinners?
The message of UR is that Christ came to save sinners - all of them.
Quote:
You are teaching things you cannot understand because you disobey the command of Jesus and the Father so He makes the word like a parable you cannot comprehend.Then you convert people to your confusion and slam the gates of heaven on them so you do not enter and neither do they.
You are thinking that the resurrection is after you die in the flesh. You are mistaken. You think like man not like God, therefore he hides His face from you.Those verses are speaking of the ends of the earth when everyone who is still alive in the flesh on earth will all bow down to the Lord and swear saying "Only in the Lord are righteous deeds and power." But they will not actually say those words.They will worship the Lord in spirit and in truth.Then they will say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."
Wow.
Quote:
The Lord says this;
" Judgment will again be done with justice and all the upright of heart will follow it."
Stop judging by appearances and judge righteously.
"The Lord redeems the lives of His servantsno one who takes refuge in Him incurs guilt."
"The Lord has redeemed Jacob and shows His glory through Israel".
"Walk in the light while you have it or darkness will come over you."
"Once you have the light keep faith in the light and you will become a child of light."
I do nothing on my own, I judge as I hear and my judgment is just because I am not seeking my own will but the will of the Lord who sent me.
Actually legoman the passages you quoted do not say all men will be saved. What Luke is really saying is all men will SEE [optanomai to look with the eye] God's salvation.
Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Verse 6 has to be read in the context of where is is written and refers back to Isaiah 40:
3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of Yahovah, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of Yahovah shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of Yahovah hath spoken it.
Next, what [or who] is God's salvation spoken of here? It's the Messiah. How do we know this?
Luke 2:
25 ¶ And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation.
So Luke is saying all ppl will see the Messiah. Have all ppl seen Him? No, so this verse has to be referring to His second coming.
Hi mshipmate,
Thanks for actually looking at the passages in question. I mostly agree with your assessment, but I don't agree that it doesn't point to universal salvation.
Yes, this must be referring to a future time. It ties in directly with every knee bowing, every tongue confessing and swearing allegiance, and everyone praising God, which are also future events.
But if you look at the previous verse Isaiah 40:4 (or Luke 3:5) it says the "crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places smooth". This is speaking of people being made righteous. There will be no more crooked or rough people - all will be refined and made righteous - therefore all will have been saved.
I don't think this is saying a bunch of people are watching some other people get saved.
If you actually want to know what the original verses you quoted really mean in their context, just ask.
Please do not be deceived. Not everyone will be saved.
-Jesus said to the Pharisees "your sin remains" in John 9:41. We know that "The wages of sin is death" as stated in Romans 6:23 and that there are 2 DEATHS. One is the physical which we all take part of. THE 2ND DEATH is further revealed as eternal separation from God in revelation 20:11-15 " And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened : and another book was opened , which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the [URL="http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/revelation/20.html#"]sea[/URL] gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE 2ND DEATH. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
-The torment of the lake of fire goes on forever. It does not end according to God's Word. Revelation 20:10 "
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." FOR EVER AND EVER IS GODS DOMINION. THE ONLY WAY THE TORMENT OF THOSE CAST INTO LAKE OF FIRE WOULD EVER END IS IF GOD WAS NOT GOD.
God is both just and loving
Its not what we do that sends us to hell. Its what we don't do..which is CHOOSE NOT to accept the atonement of Christ shed blood on the cross for our sin and believe on Him as Lord and personal savior in our heart.
God made salvation so easy for us because He did all the work. And He gave us a choice..We do not have to go to hell, though that is what we deserve.
If you actually want to know what the original verses you quoted really mean in their context, just ask.
Please do not be deceived. Not everyone will be saved.
-Jesus said to the Pharisees "your sin remains" in John 9:41. We know that "The wages of sin is death" as stated in Romans 6:23 and that there are 2 DEATHS. One is the physical which we all take part of. THE 2ND DEATH is further revealed as eternal separation from God in revelation 20:11-15 " And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened : and another book was opened , which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE 2ND DEATH. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
-The torment of the lake of fire goes on forever. It does not end according to God's Word. Revelation 20:10 "
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." FOR EVER AND EVER IS GODS DOMINION. THE ONLY WAY THE TORMENT OF THOSE CAST INTO LAKE OF FIRE WOULD EVER END IS IF GOD WAS NOT GOD.
God is both just and loving
Its not what we do that sends us to hell. Its what we don't do..which is CHOOSE NOT to accept the atonement of Christ shed blood on the cross for our sin and believe on Him as Lord and personal savior in our heart.
God made salvation so easy for us because He did all the work. And He gave us a choice..We do not have to go to hell, though that is what we deserve.
Hi john 941 I think you are making a common mistake that many make. The scripture's are true and
100 percent correct, but the Bible is NOT scripture it is a translation of scripture. The Lake of fire is God's cleansing fire and the second death is the death of our carnal nature. The proper translation(some Bibles have it) is they shall be tormented (spiritually and mentally not physically) for the age, until their hearts are changes and they will repent.
God will bring about the changes needed to cause everyone to "choose to repent and be saved. For those who say God will not force us, He brings about the causes that bring us around so it will be our choice but the only one we could make. I know I am not explaining it very well but those who's eyes have been opened(by God) will understand and those who haven't won't
Hi john 941 I think you are making a common mistake that many make. The scripture's are true and
100 percent correct, but the Bible is NOT scripture it is a translation of scripture. The Lake of fire is God's cleansing fire and the second death is the death of our carnal nature. The proper translation(some Bibles have it) is they shall be tormented (spiritually and mentally not physically) for the age, until their hearts are changes and they will repent.
God will bring about the changes needed to cause everyone to "choose to repent and be saved. For those who say God will not force us, He brings about the causes that bring us around so it will be our choice but the only one we could make. I know I am not explaining it very well but those who's eyes have been opened(by God) will understand and those who haven't won't
What I don't understand and I'm not picking on you, but it seems universalists point to certain Scriptures as their proof, yet any Scriptures that oppose them, they disregard saying the Bible is corrupted. How is it that all the verses one uses to support one's views are sound, but all those that oppose one's views are corrupt?
Also, I think universalism plays on emotions. I hear the refrain, "It isn't fair that God would condemn someone to eternal torment", or "How can you live with yourself knowing you're going to heaven while your neighbor is going to fry or be annihilated (depending on your view of Hell)?" Arguments based on human emotion and not God's Word unsettle me. Honestly, I'd like nothing more for the Bible to confirm the universalist position, however I just don't see it when read as a whole.
What I don't understand and I'm not picking on you, but it seems universalists point to certain Scriptures as their proof, yet any Scriptures that oppose them, they disregard saying the Bible is corrupted. How is it that all the verses one uses to support one's views are sound, but all those that oppose one's views are corrupt?
Also, I think universalism plays on emotions. I hear the refrain, "It isn't fair that God would condemn someone to eternal torment", or "How can you live with yourself knowing you're going to heaven while your neighbor is going to fry or be annihilated (depending on your view of Hell)?" Arguments based on human emotion and not God's Word unsettle me. Honestly, I'd like nothing more for the Bible to confirm the universalist position, however I just don't see it when read as a whole.
As I see it (from a non-Christian perspective), it's not about emotion, it's about who/what do you believe God to be.
If you believe that God IS love, then eternal torment simply does not compute. For me, it's that simple. Does a bible passage seem to contradict that God is love? If so, then either I'm reading it wrong, or reading something into it that isn't there because of a doctrine that I was taught to believe (like eternal torment), or it just plain isn't truth.
As I see it (from a non-Christian perspective), it's not about emotion, it's about who/what do you believe God to be.
If you believe that God IS love, then eternal torment simply does not compute. For me, it's that simple. Does a bible passage seem to contradict that God is love? If so, then either I'm reading it wrong, or reading something into it that isn't there because of a doctrine that I was taught to believe (like eternal torment), or it just plain isn't truth.
I take the entire Bible as God's Word. Yes, God is a God of love. But that is not the complete nature of God's character. When God revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 34 we see God as "compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, and abundantly loving" yet in the same breath "not leaving the guilty unpunished;He punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.” To claim belief in only one aspect of God's character discredits God's glory and minimizes what He's promised to do.
If you want to believe God is what you think He should be is your choice. I choose to accept who He claims to be, nothing more and nothing less. It's not for me to define God's character for Him. He's made that abundantly clear.
Also, I think universalism plays on emotions. I hear the refrain, "It isn't fair that God would condemn someone to eternal torment", or "How can you live with yourself knowing you're going to heaven while your neighbor is going to fry or be annihilated (depending on your view of Hell)?" Arguments based on human emotion and not God's Word unsettle me. Honestly, I'd like nothing more for the Bible to confirm the universalist position, however I just don't see it when read as a whole.
That is your mistake, pastor . . . relying on the words "written in ink" rather than what God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant. You believe that Christ invoked a New Covenant and that God has "written in our hearts" so that we would need no man to teach us. Christ abides with us (do you believe it?) and His Holy Spirit (Comforter) is available within our consciousness to guide us to the truth (do you believe it?) That is WHY you would " like nothing more for the Bible to confirm the universalist position." But you override your heart for the words "written in ink" based on the "precepts and doctrines of men." They have erroneously called the Bible the word of God. But Christ is the Living Word of God and He abides with us (do you believe it?).
Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-28-2014 at 01:47 PM..
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