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What I am trying to make clear is that the natural man is not left on his own. When the gospel is presented to the spiritually dead unbeliever, the Holy Spirit makes the gospel understandable to him, and draws him though his convicting ministry in common grace which is mentioned in John 16:8-11. Some people will respond and others won't. The Holy Spirit can be resisted as shown in Acts 7:51.
But anyone who wishes can come to Christ in response to the gospel as shown in Revelation 22:17.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not precede faith, but is a result of faith and actually is simultaneous with faith in Christ. No one in the Old Testament ever had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or the filling of the Holy Spirit, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Those ministries did not exist prior to the Church Age. There were a few believers who had the enduement of the Spirit for the purpose of accomplishing certain tasks. What IS common to all dispensations is the regenerating ministry of the Holy Spirit. That is the means by which a person is born again.
But it is the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit which allows the natural man to understand and respond to the gospel so that he can be born again.
The sequence is that the gospel is given, and by means of the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit the gospel is made perspicacious to the spiritually dead unbeliever (the natural man). The unbeliever cannot understand the realm of Bible doctrine, but he can understand the specific gospel message through the Holy Spirit's ministry. If the gospel is believed with the result that the unbeliever places his faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit then takes that faith and makes it effective for salvation. This is the efficacious ministry of the Holy Spirit in response to the faith response.
God calls through the gospel. The Holy Spirit draws through His common grace ministry. If the gospel hearer than places his faith in Christ then the Holy Spirit carries that faith to the point of salvation.
With regard to the hearing of the gospel, I do agree that the natural man is not "left on his own". If he were, he could never receive the truths contained in that message. The only difference is that the Holy Spirit is not working effectually in the individual who will not receive the things conveyed in that message. The only people who will resist the Holy Spirit with regard to hearing the gospel unto salvation are those in whom the Holy Spirit is not working.
Jesus tells us that His sheep hear His voice, and that all that the Father gives to Him will come to Him. Another very important question is concerning whether Christ's sacrifice actually obtained eternal redemption for a people, or did it simply make salvation possible for us, whereby it is finally up to us to make a decision one way or the other.
Kindly consider Hebrews 9:12:
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
The Bible tells us that we are a "purchased possession"...that Christ purchased the Church of God "with His own blood". We have been "bought with a price". God has indeed redeemed a people. Christ's "once for all" sacrifice was the fulfillment of all that the Old Testament sacrificial system had pointed to.
Christ indeed redeemed us to God "by His blood" (Rev 5:9). The saving work is ultimately the sacrifice of Christ. Those who are redeemed are made manifest by the fact that they have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ through the hearing of the gospel. God's people must be made known, as He has commissioned us to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Only those who are God's people will hear and believe.
We must not attribute any ability on man's part to hear the gospel and receive its message unto salvation outside of God's sovereignly enabling the individual. Otherwise, the message will simply be foolishness to him.
Apparently .......
From a few posts back: (with a modest change)
OSAS and UR are two different approaches to the same coin.
They both argue for the eventuality of being saved when one doesn't profess faith \ remains faithful to the end.
OSAS has one fix (to the problem), UR has another.
Well if your a universalist then I'm very Glad God put that in your heart. There is a great distortion that many anti-universalist make in that they believe a universalist believes that you can believe whatever you want and be saved. That is NOT True. However, we do believe that you can believe whatever you want and you will eventually be saved (By embracing God's way of loving thy neighbor above yourself). So it is true that everyone will eventually be saved (even if they committed the greatest of sins). After all, if God can't save the greatest sinner then really how Great can God really be? - obviously and thankfully God can save ANYONE no matter how great their sin is. So it is pleasing to know that God can even pout a new heart in each of us - one that desires and fulfills His will so that His work in giving us life to begin with was not in Vain.
Well if your a universalist then I'm very Glad God put that in your heart. There is a great distortion that many anti-universalist make in that they believe a universalist believes that you can believe whatever you want and be saved. That is NOT True. However, we do believe that you can believe whatever you want and you will eventually be saved (By embracing God's way of loving thy neighbor above yourself). So it is true that everyone will eventually be saved (even if they committed the greatest of sins). After all, if God can't save the greatest sinner then really how Great can God really be? - obviously and thankfully God can save ANYONE no matter how great their sin is. So it is pleasing to know that God can even pout a new heart in each of us - one that desires and fulfills His will so that His work in giving us life to begin with was not in Vain.
trettep,
You're reading more into what is being said. Scriptures hasn't suddenly changed to support that.
I hope you you re-read this and tell me how you what believe is any different than us distortionist's claims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
There is a great distortion that many anti-universalist make in that they believe a universalist believes that you can believe whatever you want and be saved.
That is NOT True. However, we do believe that you can believe whatever you want and you will eventually be saved
trettep,
You're reading more into what is being said. Scriptures hasn't suddenly changed to support that.
I hope you you re-read this and tell me how you what believe is any different than us distortionist's claims.
How is it NOT true .... it's virtually the same.
Here is the difference. Those that believe whatever they want right now will not always believe whatever they want so they will eventually be saved. They will all eventually believe and follow their Lord Jesus Christ. So that means that everyone who is currently doing and believing anything they want will eventually be saved. You see all will be changed. All of us will have that disbelief and selfish desire to be destroyed. That is what us universalist are preaching. We're NOT saying that you can go into the Kingdom of Heaven as a disbelieving sinner.
What do you think? And I request that you please state what you believe God's will and desire for mankind is in your response, thanks.
This is carnal thinking and understanding you are desiring to hear, not Father Gods will. This is why people will never perceive Father Gods will, because people are always seeking His will in their own feeble (weak or lacking) carnal knowledge. This cannot be done in our own carnal knowledge or thinking...lol.
Always remember Isaiah 55, but especially an emphasis on verses 8-9 of the 13 verses of Isaiah 55...
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts."
Therefore always remember Jesus' testimony in Matthew 19:23-30, but emphasis on verse 26...
With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
I speak the truth when I say....Father God has a season and a reason for everything, not in your time but in His time. If you really want to know the will of the Father, then just let Him be the lead of your life, and walk and live in the Spirit (in the likeness of Christ Jesus) and His will will be done in you. That is all that matters, that the Holy Spirit is the lead of our lives in Christ Jesus' mighty name. All doors will then be opened to His wisdom & knowledge, and then and only then will we truly perceive....Amen, I say!
....Peace be with you, as peace I leave you from my heart!
Here is the difference. Those that believe whatever they want right now will not always believe whatever they want so they will eventually be saved. They will all eventually believe and follow their Lord Jesus Christ. So that means that everyone who is currently doing and believing anything they want will eventually be saved. You see all will be changed. All of us will have that disbelief and selfish desire to be destroyed. That is what us universalist are preaching. We're NOT saying that you can go into the Kingdom of Heaven as a disbelieving sinner.
The technical name for that ... 'everyone who is currently doing and believing anything they want will eventually be saved. ' ... is “antinomianism.â€
It means to be against the law: God’s law.
Example of “antinomianism†of Christ's words would be Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever doesnotbelieve (who is currently doing and believing anything they want) will eventually be saved.. “antinomianism.â€
instead of what Jesus said Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Both John 16:8-11 and Revelation 22:17 refute your Calvinistic assertion that man cannot respond to the gospel. And Revelation 22:17 is indeed an invitation to come to Christ through the call of the gospel. Every Church-age believer is sealed to the day of redemption. That is one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit which takes place the moment a person believes on Jesus Christ in response to the invitation extended through the gospel.
Nope...You are wrong...Neither has anything to do with what you are implying...
Both John 16:8-11 and Revelation 22:17 refute your Calvinistic assertion that man cannot respond to the gospel. And Revelation 22:17 is indeed an invitation to come to Christ through the call of the gospel. Every Church-age believer is sealed to the day of redemption. That is one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit which takes place the moment a person believes on Jesus Christ in response to the invitation extended through the gospel.
And you have not addressed the Romans verses I have included in my response...
Nope...You are wrong...Neither has anything to do with what you are implying...
I am not implying anything. John 16:8-11 refers to the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry at the point of gospel hearing by which He seeks to convict the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, of righteousness, and of judgment. This is the common grace ministry by which God the Holy Spirit makes the issue of salvation understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever so that he can respond to the gospel, or resist the Holy Spirit.
Revelation 22:17 is an invitation for anyone who wishes to come to Christ for eternal life. Therefore anyone who wishes to CAN come to Christ in response to the gospel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
And you have not addressed the Romans verses I have included in my response...
Paul's point in the first few chapters of Romans is that man can not measure up to God's perfect righteousness, but must be given it through faith in Christ. Romans 3:9-10 to which you refer shows that there are no righteous men (apart from being given God's righteousness by grace through faith [Rom. 4:3] )
Romans 3:11 which says that there are none who understand and none who seek after God is not to be taken in an absolute sense. Paul is not saying that the unbeliever has no understanding at all of the existence of God, because as he points out in Romans 1:19 God has made evident to man that which is known about God. Not in a salvific way, but in a general and natural way through His creation, so that man is without excuse for rejecting God. Furthermore, God has made the knowledge of His existence evident within man. Paul's statement in Romans 3:11 is based on Psalm 114:1-3 which refers to the fool who has said in his heart that there is no God. He is a fool because he rejects the existence of God despite God's general revelation of Himself. Paul says in Romans 1:21-22 that having known God and rejecting Him, they become fools though they profess to be wise. So again,Paul is not saying in Romans 3:11 that the unbeliever is totally unable to comprehend the existence of God.
The phrase in Romans 1:21 'for even though they knew God' refers or points to an original experiential knowledge of God which had existed both before and after the fall and which was eventually perverted.. Not only is God revealed in a general way through His creation, but originally there had been direct knowledge of God.
Romans 1:19 says that which is known about God is evident within them; because God made it evident to them. The unbeliever knows about the existence of God. He has a certain level of knowledge and understanding about God.
The unbeliever has not been left on his own. He has a level of understanding about God through God's creation, and by the fact that God has placed eternity in the heart of man. But many unbelievers will suppress that level of understanding because of negative volition.
But the unbeliever can exercise positive volition. At some point in life a child will look at the world around him and wonder if this is all there is or whether there is something more. Something greater than he. Something which created the moon and the stars. And he may decide that he wants to learn about it. That is positive volition at the point of God consciousness. On the other hand, he might simply reject the idea and have nothing more to do with it. That is negative volition at God consciousness. Whenever some person expresses positive volition at the point of God Consciousness God will make sure that that person will have an opportunity to hear the gospel before he dies so that he can choose to come to God in response to the gospel message concerning Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:7-8 simply expresses the fact that the carnal mind cannot subject itself to the law of God and cannot please God. But the very moment a person responds to the gospel under the common grace ministry of God the Holy Spirit by placing his faith in Christ he is born again or regenerated. That is, he is given a human spirit to which God imputes His perfect righteousness and eternal life, he is both indwelt and filled by the Holy Spirit (two different ministries of the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation), and at that moment he is in status quo spirituality until he commits his first post salvation sin which puts him into a carnal state (his eternal salvation is not affected by being in a carnal state), at which point he need simply name his sin to God as per 1 John 1:9 which then puts in back into a spiritual state.
So, the unbeliever is called and drawn at the point of gospel hearing. He is able to respond to the gospel because of the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry. Or he can choose to resist the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry and refuse to be persuaded by the gospel.
Anyone whosoever may freely come to God in response to the gospel call. Anyone who wishes may drink freely of the water of life as stated in Revelation 21:6; 22:17.
Rev. 21:6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Contrary to the teachings of 5 point Calvinism to which you adhere, Jesus Christ did not die only for some, thereby making it impossible for those He did not die for (according to Calvinism) to be saved. Whoever wishes to may respond to the gospel message and thereby have eternal life without cost. Jesus Christ already paid the price.
With regard to the hearing of the gospel, I do agree that the natural man is not "left on his own". If he were, he could never receive the truths contained in that message. The only difference is that the Holy Spirit is not working effectually in the individual who will not receive the things conveyed in that message. The only people who will resist the Holy Spirit with regard to hearing the gospel unto salvation are those in whom the Holy Spirit is not working.
Jesus tells us that His sheep hear His voice, and that all that the Father gives to Him will come to Him. Another very important question is concerning whether Christ's sacrifice actually obtained eternal redemption for a people, or did it simply make salvation possible for us, whereby it is finally up to us to make a decision one way or the other.
Kindly consider Hebrews 9:12:
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
The Bible tells us that we are a "purchased possession"...that Christ purchased the Church of God "with His own blood". We have been "bought with a price". God has indeed redeemed a people. Christ's "once for all" sacrifice was the fulfillment of all that the Old Testament sacrificial system had pointed to.
Christ indeed redeemed us to God "by His blood" (Rev 5:9). The saving work is ultimately the sacrifice of Christ. Those who are redeemed are made manifest by the fact that they have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ through the hearing of the gospel. God's people must be made known, as He has commissioned us to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Only those who are God's people will hear and believe.
We must not attribute any ability on man's part to hear the gospel and receive its message unto salvation outside of God's sovereignly enabling the individual. Otherwise, the message will simply be foolishness to him.
JAA2310, I'll try to get to this later. Or maybe tomorrow.
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