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No people lie. To be taken up into the clouds with Christ is a figure of speech...all of us will be taken in time...getting back to the lie if one does exist...Paul was not an honest guy..he was personally and politically ambitious.
Looking up at that star we call the son..that fragile thing...we know that it will disappear in time- some say in trillions of years...but it is possible it could disappear in the next second- We have a delicate and fragile existence on this earth- It is truly a miracle we are here..in time the world will be gone...The only person that told the truth...was Christ...I am not interested in interpretations or theory that comes from the mouths of others.....no matter how respected the bible is....I trust but Christ and God..the rest is trivial....Those who hope to abandon the earth as if they were saints abandon what needs repair...The idea of rapture is selfish and in a Christian context...contrary to the teachings of Jesus...No one escapes this place through divine intervention...cos it is not what should be...We are here to heal this broken heaven- not to abandon ship.
Those who believe in the rapture are much like those at Nasa looking for life in outer space...There is none. Instead of looking for a place to run we should be taking care of this precious gift from God...rapture is the cowards fanciful reward.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
What is your point in quoting what I already quoted. Did you have some hidden agenda that I know nothing about?
The rapture of the Church is eminent. This means that there is no prophecy which must be fulfilled before the rapture can occur. The early Church did believe that Christ would return for the Church. But the dispensation of the Church continues to this day. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is a reference to the rapture. .
Based on what? ......... the failed previous attempts of other Millennialists?
A: The rapture of the Church is eminent (whenever)
+
B: The Milleniumist's 7 year trib ....... (whenever + 7)
+
C: The Milleniumist's 1000 year number....... ( whenever + 7 + 1000 number)
=
The predicted date of Jesus' return when "whenever" occures
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The saints which rose from the grave were not Church Age believers, but were Old Testament saints. .
Conjecture ... nothing more than that.
Last edited by twin.spin; 09-17-2012 at 12:14 PM..
[quote=Mike555;26128703]The rapture of the Church is eminent. This means that there is no prophecy which must be fulfilled before the rapture can occur.
That is simply not true. There is much yet to be fullfilled.
2THESS 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him [all one and the same], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
We will see the Antichrist and him sit in the temple before the rapture takes place and that only upon the Lords return which this Scripture makes abundantly clear and we are not to hear deception of any kind by any means nor from anybody.
Those who believe in the rapture are much like those at Nasa looking for life in outer space...There is none. Instead of looking for a place to run we should be taking care of this precious gift from God...rapture is the cowards fanciful reward.
It is not a place to run to. Whoever gave you that idea. But it is promise that gives hope and that there is more to come after we have enjoyed life more abundant with Christ in the here and now.
Originally Posted by garya123;26129607
2THESS 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him [all one and the same
, That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
We will see the Antichrist and him sit in the temple before the rapture that takes place and that only upon the Lords return which this Scripture makes abundantly clear and we are not to hear deception of any kind by any means nor from anybody.
Paul writes that the Anti-Christ is the man-of-lawlessness.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 God says: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work"
Since 2 Thessalonians 2:7 .. the Christian have been dealing with the Antichrist
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This shows that we will be here during the tribulation and its when Christ returns is when everyone who is a believer is ruptured. Believers through out history have been tortured because of there faith, so i doubt our generation will get a free pass on going through any sort trials.
The rapture of the Church is eminent. This means that there is no prophecy which must be fulfilled before the rapture can occur. The early Church did believe that Christ would return for the Church. But the dispensation of the Church continues to this day. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is a reference to the rapture.
The saints which rose from the grave were not Church Age believers, but were Old Testament saints. They were not resurrected. Their mortal bodies were resuscitated and later died again just as Lazarus did when Jesus resuscitated him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Based on what? ......... the failed previous attempts of other Millennialists?
A: The rapture of the Church is eminent (whenever)
+
B: The Milleniumist's 7 year trib ....... (whenever + 7)
+
C: The Milleniumist's 1000 year number....... ( whenever + 7 + 1000 number)
=
The predicted date of Jesus' return when "whenever" occures
Conjecture ... nothing more than that.
Failed predictions have nothing to do with the reality of the rapture of the Church.
The Tribulation will indeed be 7 years in length. Daniel 9:27 states that the antichrist will make a covenant with the many for one week (a week of years which is seven years). That will be the beginning of the Tribulation. But he will break the covenant in the middle of the week (after 3 1/2 years).
Once the antichrist breaks that covenant he will set up the abomination of desolation in the temple. Once that happens (again, this is 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation) those Jews who have paid attention to the warnings given in the Scriptures will flee to the place that God has prepared for them where they will be nourished 'for a time, and times, and half a time from the presence of the serpent' (Rev. 12:14).
The time, and times, and half of time correspond to the 42 months and 1260 days of Revelation 11:2-3, and the 42 months of Revelation 13:5. 1260 days is 42 months which is 3 1/2 years consisting of 360 day years. Those 42 months are one half of the Tribulation which makes the Tribulational period 7 years in length.
The Millennium will begin 75 days after the Tribulation has ended (Daniel 12:11-12).
Dan. 12:11 "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. The abomination of desolation is set up 1260 days into the Tribulation. 1260 days after that, the Tribulation ends. 1260 days subtracted from 1290 days is 30 days. This is speaking of a period extending 30 days beyond the end of the Tribulation.
Now in Dan. 12:12 1335 days is mentioned. "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 1260 days subtracted from 1335 days is 75 days
So the total length of time between the end of the Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennium will be 75 days. The 30 days in verse 11 are part of the total 75 days in verse 12. This will allow for the judgment of the nations to take place as well as the cleanup period from the carnage which will result when Christ destroys His enemies when He returns.
You can't allegorize those days when it is clear that 1260 days is also mentioned as being 42 months. Nor can you allegorize the 1000 years which is mentioned 5 times regarding the Millennum in Revelation 20.
The Church Age did not begin until the day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Chirst. Those who rose from their graves were Old Testament saints. You are the one who claims that everyone will be resurrected at one and the same time. Are you now going to claim that those who rose from the grave were in fact resurrected which contradicts your beliefs?
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-17-2012 at 02:12 PM..
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This shows that we will be here during the tribulation and its when Christ returns is when everyone who is a believer is ruptured. Believers through out history have been tortured because of there faith, so i doubt our generation will get a free pass on going through any sort trials.
No it doesn't. The Church has its election, and Israel has its election (Deut. 7:6; 14:2; Isa. 41:8,9). Old Testament believers which include Tribulational Saints because the Tribulation is the last seven years of the Age of Israel, and Church Age believers are both called saints. (Deut. 33:2,3 - Old Testament saints). The Church is not Israel and will not go through the Tribulation. The trumpet which sounds at the rapture of the Church is not the same trumpet which will sound at the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
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