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All you eternal tormentists do when faced with the inevitable questions I posed is to hide behind that same old lame excuse "Well, who are you going to believe, God's word or your lyin' eyes?" It's all the more tragic because you guys absolutely refuse to step beyond the absurdity of what you've been taught for some 1500 years by evil corrupt theologians like Augustine and ask yourself some rational questions that might test your warped beliefs for even a few minutes. Again, I pose the question and this time try to provide a rational answer if you dare: if you saw a parent with twenty children and nineteen of them ended up in prison, death row and skid row as bums, prostitutes and drug addicts would you question their parenting skills in the slightest? Would you think even remotely that they might have been a little deficient in their God-given duties to raise morally upright, ethical children? If your answer is no, then you have some serious problems with your theology and I don't care what you think is written in the Bible---it's clearly wrong.
There's something incredibly dismal, crass, sick and evil about a redemption plan designed by God that fails 90% of humanity and lets them burn in hell for all eternity. Any clear-minded person who can think for himself instead of spouting what he's been spoon-fed by a corrupt church system could see something monstrously wrong with this kind of a salvation plan from a mile off. But if you insist on painting God as the biggest failure in the universe, unable with all His power to overcome man's sinful bent--even men who has never even heard the name of Jesus--then go right on thinking that. But your numbers are dwindling fast and I'll tell you why: because no televangelist or preacher with one eye on the tithe basket, and they ALL have their eyes on the tithing basket these days, dares even mention the subject--that's how radioactive the topic of eternal torment is in modern society. They know that by even broaching eternal torment they would empty their Church out faster than than someone yelling, "Fire!" You know it and I know it.
I understand your frustration, thrill . . . but the church has prevented anyone from thinking. They retain and perpetuate the same ancient ignorance that was designed for and understandable by barbaric savages whose only motivator for self-control was fear of a Ruler. They have changed nothing as humanity has evolved beyond that level of barbarity. They like the power and control and completely ignore Christ's message of a loving God to perpetuate ancient ignorance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
To answer your question - of course the parenting is questionable - but your analogy is flawed.
<snip>
This whole conversation to me is about whom do you trust? Can you acknowledge at least that if things don't turn out like you want - you will still acknowledge God as who He is? ...that you will stop calling Him a failure if everyone is not saved? ...that you will let the Word speak for itself? If you don't want to believe the whole plan of eternal punishment - fine. But you should at least acknowledge it's presence in the Bible and accept it as a possibility.
Your trust is ill-placed. You are following the "precepts and doctrines of men" who revere and idolize what has been "written in ink" . . . while ignoring what the Holy Spirit guides them to that God has "written in our hearts." Bible idolatry is NOT Christianity. Christ would not condone such fear-mongering and corruption of His Good News.
I didn't miss what you said, I asked for the reference.
So you take Jesus' statement to the Pharisees (John 8:41-44 that I quoted earlier) - and we know Jesus is all truth all the time - and we have your take on Eph. 4:6 that God is the Father of all mankind. Seems like a contradiction. But there are no contradictions - so it's time to dig further.
What's the context?
Ephesians 4:1-8
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
I read this and ask - what does "all" represent? The Father is not only the father of all - but he is also over all, through all, and IN all. The last one is troublesome to your interpretation of the Father being over all of mankind - because He is definitely not IN all of mankind. He IS in all of believers. The context also speaks of one faith, one baptism, one body, one Spirit, and Christ's gift. This is not representative of unbelievers and all of mankind. Also...
1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
This echoes the John 8:44 verse about children of the devil.
So according to the context in surrounding verses and other supporting verses - "all" in Ephesians 4 refers to all believers - NOT all of mankind - because the context of the verse is in reference to believers only. And because people can't be children of God and children of the devil at the same time.
Your trust is ill-placed. You are following the "precepts and doctrines of men" who revere and idolize what has been "written in ink" . . . while ignoring what the Holy Spirit guides them to that God has "written in our hearts." Bible idolatry is NOT Christianity. Christ would not condone such fear-mongering and corruption of His Good News.
Your trust is ill-placed. You are following the "precepts and doctrines of men" who revere and idolize what has been "written in ink" . . . while ignoring what the Holy Spirit guides them to that God has "written in our hearts." Bible idolatry is NOT Christianity. Christ would not condone such fear-mongering and corruption of His Good News.
Doesn't universalism use the Bible - albeit incorrect IMHO? Who made up the title of this thread?
The Bible is fine as long as your side gets its way. I use the Bible and all of a sudden the Bible is an idol. Is that where we are with this?
I find it amazing that Thrillobyte chose to avoid the question of trusting God regardless of whether or not all are saved. So basically it's your way or the highway with this - and it's really about your desired outcome and not want God wants. Anything outside of your outcome is "dismal, evil, sick, and crass" - and "God is a failure". God would be a failure because He didn't meet your outcome if everyone is not saved.
Doesn't universalism use the Bible - albeit incorrect IMHO? Who made up the title of this thread?
Universalism uses intelligence and moral conscience to evaluate what has been written ABOUT God by fallible human beings (inspired or not). Using an advanced moral conscience to recognize the fallible human errors in understanding God is the proper way to use the Bible. Scriptures are for instruction . . . NOT reverence. They tell us of Christ . . . but Christ is the ONLY Word of God that should be revered . . . and He abides with us.
Let's get this settled once and for all and put an end to this madness. If the scriptures are inspired then these two verse should harmonize. We shouldn't have to use lame excuses like, "Well, we have to look at the entire Bible in context." Or "We have to put 2 Thessalonians 1:9 with Psalm 32:4 and then look at Deuteronomy 34:11-13 and see what Malachi 2:1 and Haggai 3:12 say, bla bla bla. No computer on earth can harmonize 31,240 verses that way.
Let's just take these two seemingly contrasting passages written by the same author, Paul. My challenge to both the universalists and the eternal tormentists is to simply harmonize them.
Universalists, explain why 2 Thess. 1:9 means all will be saved.
Eternal tormentists, explain why Romans 5:18 means eternal torment.
If these two verses cannot be harmonized then the scriptures are not inspired, pure and simple. If nobody attempts to do it we will understand the situation: Paul either was a schizophrenic nutjob or the scriptures have been severely tampered with. Nobody has to bother to argue this conclusion. It is evident on its face.
I think it's important to move beyond the gospels. Jesus had a layer of truth. Paul had a deeper layer, imo.
(BTW: Hell was not preached in the New Testament. And Paul didn't warn about it in his letters. BIG omission, very important implication..)
Universalism uses intelligence and moral conscience to evaluate what has been written ABOUT God by fallible human beings (inspired or not). Using an advanced moral conscience to recognize the fallible human errors in understanding God is the proper way to use the Bible. Scriptures are for instruction . . . NOT reverence. They tell us of Christ . . . but Christ is the ONLY Word of God that should be revered . . . and He abides with us.
Oh - I see. Intelligence, moral conscience, advanced moral conscience...
1 Corinthians 1:19-29
19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God.
What did Jesus say...
Matthew 11:25 - At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
It doesn't sound like God works through man's wisdom and intelligence.
So what does that say for universalism, since you state it comes from intelligence - but God's wisdom does not comes through the intelligence of man?
Also - how do you know Christ abides in us? And who is "us"?
Oh - I see. Intelligence, moral conscience, advanced moral conscience...
1 Corinthians 1:19-29
19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God.
What did Jesus say...
Matthew 11:25 - At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
It doesn't sound like God works through man's wisdom and intelligence.
So what does that say for universalism, since you state it comes from intelligence - but God's wisdom does not comes through the intelligence of man?
Also - how do you know Christ abides in us? And who is "us"?
Christ is the seed that went into the earth (mankind) and comes forth according to God's design. I don't think Mystic is speaking about worldly wisdom. I think he's speaking of wisdom that comes from above, and is given to anyone who is able to hear it.
Many religious people are not able to hear spiritual things. Jesus knew this very well, and this is also why Jesus told his disciples that he had "many things to tell" them but they were not ready to hear them.
So also today, many religious people are not able to hear what the Lord has in store for them.
In God's time, all flesh will know Him. From the least unto the greatest. (And the greatest are the lowliest of all.)
Oh - Matthew 11:25 - At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
It doesn't sound like God works through man's wisdom and intelligence.
So what does that say for universalism, since you state it comes from intelligence - but God's wisdom does not comes through the intelligence of man?
Also - how do you know Christ abides in us? And who is "us"?
I must say that I agree with DRob4JC instead 0f with the universalists.
Prov. 3 says [5] Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Heb. 9 says [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.
Mystic says we should trust the Holy Spirit, but 2 Tim. 3 says [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Peter said in Acts 5:[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him'
In Heb. 5, we read of Jesus that [9] He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Jesus Him self said in John 14:[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
So the ultimate test of whether we have the Holy Spirit is whether or not we are obedient to Him. He said in Luke 6:[46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
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