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God is one 'being' but three 'persons' but in what sense are the persons separate?
Does not personhood constitute a separate consciousness, a separate identity?
How can God be divided? If you say the Son is NOT the father, than isn't there something about the Son that the Father lacks and vice versa?
Isn't this idea basically saying there are three consciousnesses in Heaven that are all God? Like three beings you put the hat 'God' on who what, share the same mind?
Doesn't modalism make sense, in that they are merely manifestations of a single being and a SINGLE person. I don't get why modalism was/is considered 'heresy.'
Were there/are there three spirits in Heaven who all go by 'God'?
Three manifestations of God?
Or is it like having multiple personalities. God has like 'three persons' in his cosmic mind that talk to each other?
If Christianity accuses pagan religions of being polytheistic...what about Hinduism. In some sense some Hindus believe that all their 'gods' are merely avatars or manifestations of the ultimate Lord Krishna. How is believing that God is man and human different to believing a certain avatar is Krishna in human form?
There is only one God and believing in one God there can never be any confusion about the nature and character of one God. God made known to us his true nature and character through His son. For us to try and understand the nature and character of God by any other means than looking at the nature and character of His son( looking unto Jesus)will leave our concept of Him( the one true God)flawed.
God is one 'being' but three 'persons' but in what sense are the persons separate?
Does not personhood constitute a separate consciousness, a separate identity?
How can God be divided? If you say the Son is NOT the father, than isn't there something about the Son that the Father lacks and vice versa?
Isn't this idea basically saying there are three consciousnesses in Heaven that are all God? Like three beings you put the hat 'God' on who what, share the same mind?
Doesn't modalism make sense, in that they are merely manifestations of a single being and a SINGLE person. I don't get why modalism was/is considered 'heresy.'
Were there/are there three spirits in Heaven who all go by 'God'?
Three manifestations of God?
Or is it like having multiple personalities. God has like 'three persons' in his cosmic mind that talk to each other?
If Christianity accuses pagan religions of being polytheistic...what about Hinduism. In some sense some Hindus believe that all their 'gods' are merely avatars or manifestations of the ultimate Lord Krishna. How is believing that God is man and human different to believing a certain avatar is Krishna in human form?
Hi Trimac. What the Bible reveals about God refutes the concept of Modalism. Modalism is the belief that God is a single Person who manifested Himself as the Father in Old Testament times, then as the Son during the incarnation, and then as the Holy Spirit after Jesus' ascension. Modalism holds that these modes are never manifested at the same time, but rather, consecutively. Modalism denies that there are three distinct Persons within the Godhead.
But during His incarnation, Jesus prayed to the Father. During His high priestly prayer in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prayed to the Father to glorify Him with the glory He had had with the Father before the world began. John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was'. So there you have the statement that both the Father and the Son existed at the same time in eternity past, and that Jesus had the same glory that the Father had in eternity past.
Further, it was Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the trinity, who created all that has been created. 1 Cor. 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. What 1 Cor. 8:6 is saying is that God the Father is the authority in the Godhead, which does not deny the equality of the Persons within the Godhead for they all have the exact same identical essence which is what unites them as One, and gave the command to create all which has come into existence, and that it was Jesus Christ who did the actual act of creation.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2] He was in the beginning with God. 3] All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. And Col. 1:15 which states; He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (This does not imply that there was a time when Jesus didn't exist, but simply refers to His preeminence over all of creation) of all creation. 16] For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17] He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
We see from these verses that Jesus Christ is God, that He existed with the Father, and that it was He who is the actual agent of creation and who holds all things together.
In Genesis 1:2 we see the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of God), who is the third Person of the Godhead, moving over the surface of the waters, preparing the earth for the occupancy of man. The Holy Spirit is mentioned numerous times in the Old Testament. For instance; Job 26:13 'By His breath (reference to the Holy Spirit) the heavens are cleared; His hand has pierced the fleeing serpent. Psalm 104:30 You (reference to the Father) send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And you renew the face of the ground.
During Jesus' incarnation, after His baptism, we see all three Persons of the Godhead at the same time. Matthew 3:16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17] and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
In eternity past, there was only God. He has eternally existed. God subsists as three Persons who are a United One in their essence. The essence of God consists of His Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal Life, Immutability, Veracity, Omniscience, Omnipresence, and Omnipotence. That is God's nature or essence. All three Persons within the Godhead share the exact same essence.
The three distinct Persons, or centers of consciousness within the Godhead are inseparably united. If any one of the three Persons could be removed from the Godhead (which is impossible) then God would not be God.
The three Persons of the Trinity mutually indwell or interpenetrate each other, both now and from eternity past. The Father indwells the Son and the Holy Spirit; the Son indwells the Father and the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit indwells the Father and the Son. John 17:21 provides a glimpse of this mutual indwelling in that Jesus says that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. And there has never been, and never will be any disagreement about anything between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are always in perfect agreement.
The three Persons of the Godhead have always mutually loved one another .
This side of heaven, and perhaps even in eternity, man will never fully comprehend who and what God is. God is infinite, and man, being finite, is limited in his understanding of the infinite. But the Bible does reveal certain things about God; that He is One God in terms of His essence, and that He subsists as Three distinct Persons. In the Bible, each of the attributes of His essence which I listed above, are ascribed to each of the three Persons of the Godhead.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-12-2012 at 10:09 AM..
God revealed Himself (for our benefit) in the incarnation, however, God, Himself, is the same from eternity to eternity.
As Mike555 stated, John 1 provides as detailed an understanding of God's nature and interaction with the world ... as we can understand. Someday, we will probably grasp more of God's infinite truth - That will start to happen in this life as we release ourselves to the truth He has already given us ... but, won't fully take place until we meet Him face-to-face.
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@ Mike, So if the persons loved each other than that would be like God loving himself, would it not? Doesn't real love between persons require them to be separate for it to qualify as 'love' per se? Like if, theoretically, I have an identical twin who shares the same brain and same consciousness as me, and I say I love him, it's the same brain that is saying that. But yeah you're right, who knows what kind of relationship it is.
So you're saying if one of the persons were removed God wouldn't be God? But I thought each person was FULLY God and not divisible. I still haven't got an answer as to what Jesus was before the Incarnation. Was he another spirit in Heaven? If so, did that spirit cease to dwell in Heaven and enter a human body during his time on Earth? What is he now? A glorified physical body in Heaven, recogniseable as a Jewish man in a robe, or an invisible Spirit, like the Holy Spirit? So his purpose was to change form from an invisible spirit into a metaphysical human being who also has the powers of God? So were the persons separate SPIRITS or just aspects/qualities of God, like the gas, liquid, ice analogy?
So you're saying God the Father was NOT the Creator? Kind of strange...I know it says that Jesus flung the stars into the heavens and all that, but I assumed it was because we were identifying Him with God the Father.
What about the idea that Jesus the human being is merely the visible manifestation/immanence of God the Father? Is that unorthodox? Jesus is a separate being also called God? I just don't get how a 'person' can be the same being yet a different 'person.' It's all so confusing it's probably better I just stop thinking about it. I just think many early Church theologians came up with some fanciful ideas which may not represent the truth and the Church quite harshly enforced this belief (burning those who opposed it as heretics). There is probably some truth in the Trinity but it's all about how you understand it. We all have our own personal ideas, like I actually found out until recently that what I believed as a child was more akin to Modalism, even though i had no idea what it was at the time. This was all understood from going to orthodox Christian churches.
God is one 'being' but three 'persons' but in what sense are the persons separate?
Does not personhood constitute a separate consciousness, a separate identity?
How can God be divided? If you say the Son is NOT the father, than isn't there something about the Son that the Father lacks and vice versa?
Isn't this idea basically saying there are three consciousnesses in Heaven that are all God? Like three beings you put the hat 'God' on who what, share the same mind?
Doesn't modalism make sense, in that they are merely manifestations of a single being and a SINGLE person. I don't get why modalism was/is considered 'heresy.'
Were there/are there three spirits in Heaven who all go by 'God'?
Three manifestations of God?
Or is it like having multiple personalities. God has like 'three persons' in his cosmic mind that talk to each other?
If Christianity accuses pagan religions of being polytheistic...what about Hinduism. In some sense some Hindus believe that all their 'gods' are merely avatars or manifestations of the ultimate Lord Krishna. How is believing that God is man and human different to believing a certain avatar is Krishna in human form?
Rather than answer each of your questions, I'll just tell you what I believe about the Godhead. I suspect that my explanation will address at least some of your questions, and if my comments raise any additional questions, I'd be happy to answer them. I'll begin by saying that I don't believe in the triune God as described by the 4th and 5th century creeds, but I do believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. While I believe that God is the Father of the spirits of each and every person who has ever lived, and that we are all His spirit offspring, Jesus Christ is most definitely in a class by Himself. He was with His Father in the beginning. Under His Father's direction, He created worlds without number. He was chosen to be "the Lamb" prior to the foundation of this world. He sits today on the right hand of His Father. Along with the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son make up the Godhead.
I believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say. They are not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two beings are some how both part of a single essence. We are each the physical sons and daughters of our mortal parents. Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person." That is to say, He looked like Him. Dogs beget puppies, and cats beget kittens. God beget a Son who is the same species as He is. They both have bodies of flesh and bone (although, until His birth in Bethlehem, Jesus Christ was a spirit being only).
The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." I say this because I understand the word "one" to refer to something other than one in "substance" or "essence." I believe they are "one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory." It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," I think of them together in this way. It would be impossible to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.
Most Christians also use the words “co-equal” and “co-eternal” to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. I do not. I believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. I also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what I mean when I use the word "subordinate." I understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; I do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an ant, however, is an inferior being to a human.
The third member of the Godhead is the Holy Ghost. Unlike the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost is a person of spirit only. It is by virtue of this quality that He is able to both fill the universe and dwell in our hearts. It is through the Holy Ghost that God communicates to mankind. We come to understand spiritual truths through the witnessing of the Holy Ghost, who communicates with us on a spiritual plane. It is through Him that we come to know the Father and the Son.
God is one 'being' but three 'persons' but in what sense are the persons separate?
They are 3 separate persons. Just as you and I are different persons. But they are of the same "essence" -- the same being.
Quote:
Does not personhood constitute a separate consciousness, a separate identity?
No. Maybe for physical human beings like us, yes. But not for God.
Quote:
How can God be divided? If you say the Son is NOT the father, than isn't there something about the Son that the Father lacks and vice versa?
God isn't divided. All 3 persons are 100% God. None of them lack for anything. They are different persons...but they are not lacking for anything.
Quote:
Isn't this idea basically saying there are three consciousnesses in Heaven that are all God? Like three beings you put the hat 'God' on who what, share the same mind?
Except they are all of the same essence.
Quote:
Doesn't modalism make sense, in that they are merely manifestations of a single being and a SINGLE person. I don't get why modalism was/is considered 'heresy.'
The Bible doesn't teach modalism. And it was a heresy that was soundly defeated in an early church council.
Quote:
Were there/are there three spirits in Heaven who all go by 'God'?
Three manifestations of God?
Or is it like having multiple personalities. God has like 'three persons' in his cosmic mind that talk to each other?
It's a heresy.
Quote:
If Christianity accuses pagan religions of being polytheistic...what about Hinduism. In some sense some Hindus believe that all their 'gods' are merely avatars or manifestations of the ultimate Lord Krishna. How is believing that God is man and human different to believing a certain avatar is Krishna in human form?
Could you define the word "essence" and tell me what you believe God's essence to be? I hear the word used a lot, but I just can't get my mind around what it means with respect to God. To me, an essence is the stuff from which something is made, so I'm obviously thinking along a different line.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,054,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Rather than answer each of your questions, I'll just tell you what I believe about the Godhead. I suspect that my explanation will address at least some of your questions, and if my comments raise any additional questions, I'd be happy to answer them. I'll begin by saying that I don't believe in the triune God as described by the 4th and 5th century creeds, but I do believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. While I believe that God is the Father of the spirits of each and every person who has ever lived, and that we are all His spirit offspring, Jesus Christ is most definitely in a class by Himself. He was with His Father in the beginning. Under His Father's direction, He created worlds without number. He was chosen to be "the Lamb" prior to the foundation of this world. He sits today on the right hand of His Father. Along with the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son make up the Godhead.
I believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say. They are not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two beings are some how both part of a single essence. We are each the physical sons and daughters of our mortal parents. Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person." That is to say, He looked like Him. Dogs beget puppies, and cats beget kittens. God beget a Son who is the same species as He is. They both have bodies of flesh and bone (although, until His birth in Bethlehem, Jesus Christ was a spirit being only).
The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." I say this because I understand the word "one" to refer to something other than one in "substance" or "essence." I believe they are "one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory." It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," I think of them together in this way. It would be impossible to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.
Most Christians also use the words “co-equal” and “co-eternal” to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. I do not. I believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. I also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what I mean when I use the word "subordinate." I understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; I do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an ant, however, is an inferior being to a human.
The third member of the Godhead is the Holy Ghost. Unlike the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost is a person of spirit only. It is by virtue of this quality that He is able to both fill the universe and dwell in our hearts. It is through the Holy Ghost that God communicates to mankind. We come to understand spiritual truths through the witnessing of the Holy Ghost, who communicates with us on a spiritual plane. It is through Him that we come to know the Father and the Son.
That puts a different light on it. Believing that Jesus is literally his Father's Son. You see, the whole idea of describing Jesus as the 'Son of God' or the 'Son of Man' sort of carries the suggestion that he was the PROGENY of God, that he came after the Father. In terms we're familiar with, it would be weird to suggest the Son and the Father have always been. The fact the Holy Spirit/God impregnated Mary might neatly fit into your theory. I think, though, that it was a weird intersect between the metaphorical and the literal. So you believe God was in human form? That reminds me of the passage in Jesus where it describes God 'walking' through the Garden of Eden. Did the writer of the Genesis account believe God took on human form, like how the Greeks anthromorphized Gods to the extreme, basically seeing them as human beings with supernatural powers? Jesus is sort of an heir to that tradition. It's not clear what Jesus is now: is he in human form or a spirit? So he just takes the appearance of a human but is a supernatural being? If he sits at the right hand of his father, are they really just two beings with one consciousness? If God is invisible, how will be even see him enthroned? My assumption is that Jesus is the only face of God we will ever see because God has no face. Jesus' purpose is the manifest God in visible, human form, since God is beyond human perception.
If you only read the earlier part of each Gospel you'd be forgiven for thinking Jesus in no way thought of himself as co-equal with God. He uses language of deference, but is that merely to demonstrate his servility? The Gospel of John seems to more metaphysically connect Jesus with Yahweh. I think the key is your own conception of the Trinity. I know Mormons do not accept Jesus as God, and I vaguely remember reading about them believing God is a human and Jesus his literal son I think. But it's certainly an interesting way of looking at things.
I always found the whole substitutionary atonement interesting. I always thought, what really did God give up? I mean it's not like he gave up his son for God. And how could God truly give up anything if he owns all? So it's basically like God sacrificing himself to himself? It just doesn't seem to fit. Maybe we have to re-envisage this whole neat trinity doctrine, or look at it another way.
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