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I believe the earthly family is a replica of what the heavenly family is like. We were created in the likeness of God,our Father. We are his children,he loves us more than we can know. He punishes us if we are disobedient. He takes care of us. In like manner, a child is created by his earthly father in his own image. We love our children,punish them and take care of them. We chose to create our children. They did not choose to be here. They love us because we first loved them, the same statement God makes about us. So, I believe we are chosen by God to be part of his family. We had no choice,just like in the earthly example. We like to think that somehow we had a part in it. Our earthly minds want to believe the idea that somehow,some way, in some form we had a part in Gods plan. We have to reach out and accept it etc. Somehow we are smarter or more discerning than our neighbor because they didn`t accept Gods offer. I don`t believe that. The point is we can accept no credit at all for having a part in Gods kingdom. He chose us,we didn`t choose him,at least that what God says. When I came to that truth,it opened my eyes to a love for other people that I had never felt before. I am just like everyone else,even the lost in this age. For whatever reason, God chose to open my spiritual eyes to his salvation plan in this age. We are all humans and we are all the same,blinded to the truth. God does the choosing in his own way and in his own time.
So what of those that truly live their lives as you would hope a Christian would but are not Christian? Did God skip them or does He appreciate that person's kindness, love and charity towards others just as much as He would a Christian living the same way? I would hope He would appreciate that non-Christian more than someone who professes to be Christian but doesn not live their life in accordance. If God's grace is a gift from Him then don't you think it should be given to all who live a life that truly reflects what Jesus taught even if that is not why they do it?
Last edited by irishmom; 10-18-2007 at 08:50 AM..
Reason: typo
So what of those that truly live their lives as you would hope a Christian would but are not Christian? Did God skip them or does He appreciate that person's kindness, love and charity towards others just as much as He would a Christian living the same way? I would hope He would appreciate it that non-Christian more than someone who professes to be Christian but doesn not live their life in accordance. If God's grace is a gift from Him then don't you think it should be given to all who live a life that truly reflects what Jesus taught even if that is not why they do it?
I think you are putting the cart before the horse, to use fancy theological terms
You see, God doesn't give grace to those based on their behaviour or the life they lead. That would be a salvation of works. Rather, it is only BECAUSE of the grace given that people are able to respond to God in love and obedience. Grace is not simply what saves, it is what actually opens the eyes of a person's heart so they can even live a life of kindness and charity like you mention. A regeneration of the heart has to take place before man can accept God. We can't do that, only He can. This is a calvinist view.
The opposing view is the Armenian view; that God chooses his people but out of foreknowledge they they would choose Him. An accurate view of man's depravity and the fallen state of his heart leads a calvinist to believe that if a man can choose God then God must have chosen him first and perform a miraculous intervention to make him able to choose God.
I would reject the idea that somehow there are people out there leading good Christian lives in their hearts by their own ability and not from God's grace.
I think you are putting the cart before the horse, to use fancy theological terms
You see, God doesn't give grace to those based on their behaviour or the life they lead. That would be a salvation of works. Rather, it is only BECAUSE of the grace given that people are able to respond to God in love and obedience. Grace is not simply what saves, it is what actually opens the eyes of a person's heart so they can even live a life of kindness and charity like you mention. A regeneration of the heart has to take place before man can accept God. We can't do that, only He can. This is a calvinist view.
The opposing view is the Armenian view; that God chooses his people but out of foreknowledge they they would choose Him. An accurate view of man's depravity and the fallen state of his heart leads a calvinist to believe that if a man can choose God then God must have chosen him first and perform a miraculous intervention to make him able to choose God.
I would reject the idea that somehow there are people out there leading good Christian lives in their hearts by their own ability and not from God's grace.
That doesn't explain Jewish, Islamic, Pagan, Atheist, Agnostic, etc. people who are leading their lives in kindness, love for others and charity out there. Are you saying they don't exist? I know many of them and they are there and real and not Christian...so has God given them His grace...I would have to say so.
That doesn't explain Jewish, Islamic, Pagan, Atheist, Agnostic, etc. people who are leading their lives in kindness, love for others and charity out there. Are you saying they don't exist? I know many of them and they are there and real and not Christian...so has God given them His grace...I would have to say so.
Well "common grace" is the term used by Christians to describe the limits God puts on our own sinfulness otherwise we'd all be monsters, and yes it can bring human acts of kindness and charity. But if you are arguing for a universalist view of grace, you would definitely not get an "amen" from me. If someone is confronted by a gospel thats REAL and instead abides in a false religion, then where does there heart lie? This is gonna skew this thread way off topic but....
No one is saved by the life they lead. Any religion that teaches man can somehow save himself by how they live their lives or the rules they follow is false. I have known many people that were turned off by the idea of needing a saviour and insisted that they are "just as good a person" as any Christian, Jew, *insert religion here*. In reality they were prideful because they have made it all about themselves. Interestingly enough, people like this I encounter spend more time proclaiming their own goodness than actually living it out. I have a neighbor that espouses an idealogy of karma, but he is prideful, can't get along his wife, and can't pay back money he has borrowed from me, gossips about our other neighbors, and generally never goes out of his way to be kind to anyone, yet in his mind he probably thinks he is somehow a model citizen. I only know because I see it up close and personal, but I can't imagine about the inner hearts and lives of those who claim to be kind and charitable pagans, agnostics, atheists, etc.
When the Apostle Paul journeyed all through Roman provinces and in Asia Minor proclaming Christ and Him crucified- people forsake the false Gods they had been worshipping, like the Greeks and their pantheism.
Last edited by fromcenFL; 10-18-2007 at 09:50 AM..
So what of those that truly live their lives as you would hope a Christian would but are not Christian? Did God skip them or does He appreciate that person's kindness, love and charity towards others just as much as He would a Christian living the same way? I would hope He would appreciate that non-Christian more than someone who professes to be Christian but doesn not live their life in accordance. If God's grace is a gift from Him then don't you think it should be given to all who live a life that truly reflects what Jesus taught even if that is not why they do it?
Do you feel that a person walking a good life and being the best they can be, yet not believing in God or in Jesus Christ, can be saved. I for one do not. If you do not have faith in god and accept his son as your saviour, how can you be saved?
So what of those that truly live their lives as you would hope a Christian would but are not Christian? Did God skip them or does He appreciate that person's kindness, love and charity towards others just as much as He would a Christian living the same way? I would hope He would appreciate that non-Christian more than someone who professes to be Christian but doesn not live their life in accordance. If God's grace is a gift from Him then don't you think it should be given to all who live a life that truly reflects what Jesus taught even if that is not why they do it?
I do not believe that salvation is somehow "earned" through authentic living or special kindness, love and charity. By Christ's Work Alone are We Saved.
In fact, I would challenge the that self-labeled Christian that "does not live their life in accordance" may not be a Christian at all. Faith without works is dead.
That doesn't explain Jewish, Islamic, Pagan, Atheist, Agnostic, etc. people who are leading their lives in kindness, love for others and charity out there. Are you saying they don't exist? I know many of them and they are there and real and not Christian...so has God given them His grace...I would have to say so.
Why would god who says we should not put any gods or idols before him, give these people his grace? The only way to show that you have his grace is to be a believer in him, the father, the son and the holy spirit. From what you are saying it sounds like "everyone who is kind will be saved". You are not saved by being kind, loving and charitable. This means nothing if you don't have faith in Jesus Christ as your saviour.
Hi, I agree completely with spm62. What is free will any way? Isn't there something that always causes us to act a certain way? Aren't our choices caused by some internal or external influence?
God's ways are higher than our ways and according to Ephesians 1:11, He works all things according to the counsel of His will. So how can we have total free will?
1 John 4:19
"We love Him because He first loved us."
How can a sinful heart choose to follow the Lord of it's own free will? It at enmity with God and the work of God opened our hearts to realization of what He did for us and of our need for Him as Savior. It is only because He first loved us, that we can love Him now.
In John 6:44, Jesus said that no one could come to Him, unless the Father drew the person to Him. How could one even come to Him of his or her own free will if the Father is the one who draws the person to Jesus? The Father is the one who initiates and makes it possible for the person to come to Jesus. The Father has done something to the heart of the one who comes to Jesus. It isn't that person's free will.
Paul has described us as clay and He has described God as the Potter. When is clay able to argue with or resist the One who fashions it? Romans 9:19
I think that if we say we have total free will to resist God, than we are elevating our will above the Creator's will and power. Is the will of the creature who is said to be lost and a slave to sin greater than the will of the one who made it?
And if we say that we are saved because we made the right choice, then who can claim credit? But if we realize that God is operating all in accordance with what He has designed, planned, who gets all of the credit?
So yes, I believe that we are called/saved according to God' grace and election in this age. God bless.
According to this belief, no one actually has a true free-will... It also contradicts what other Bible passages teach... 1 Timothy 2:4 NLT for he wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth... John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life...
If God truly does pick who he wants to save...Then free-will is eliminated and he truly does not want everyone to be saved or come to the knowledge of the truth... Then what the Bible says is a Lie.. We are then just actors of God's grand play... I believe God loves all of his creation and has given everyone true freedom of choice to accept or reject him...
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise to return, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He doesn't want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent...
Last edited by GreenTeaCRV; 10-18-2007 at 11:51 AM..
You see, God doesn't give grace to those based on their behaviour or the life they lead. That would be a salvation of works. Rather, it is only BECAUSE of the grace given that people are able to respond to God in love and obedience. Grace is not simply what saves, it is what actually opens the eyes of a person's heart so they can even live a life of kindness and charity like you mention. A regeneration of the heart has to take place before man can accept God. We can't do that, only He can. I would reject the idea that somehow there are people out there leading good Christian lives in their hearts by their own ability and not from God's grace.
I took what is said here (see bolded part) to mean that if you have not received God's grace (and since we are talking about Christianity, I am also assuming the need to accept Jesus in order to recieve God's grace) then you can not lead a good, kind, loving and charitable life. I respectfully disagree. Either you can lead that kind of life with out God's grace (as a Christian) or God had given His grace to many others of other faiths and non faiths as well...because there are many living that lifestyle that are not Christian. That was what I was trying to get at.
I do not think Christians have cornered the market on love, kindness, charity and morality...some just seem to think they have, IMO.
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