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There is no reasoning with dogma, Pleroo. His entire belief system is built of a series of wrong "precepts and doctrines of men" established to prop up their preferred beliefs. IF the scriptures only contain divine inspiration and not God's Word . . . their entire system crumbles under its own weight. No where is it EVER said that the Bible is God's Word.
We are told to look to the scriptures because they tell us of Christ and establish His validity . . . that's it. They tell us of Him because we need to believe Him to understand the Father and our true purpose in life. The decision to revere and elevate the Bible to the status of God' Word and idolize it . . . institutionalized the ancient ignorance and superstitions of our savage and barbaric ancestors who are responsible for killing Christ.
It is a Catch 22. They have to believe the evil, savage and barbaric things attributed to God by our ignorant ancestors . . . so they have to corrupt Christ's Gospel to pretend it is consistent . . . all while claiming God is the same. But they are not saying God is the same. They are saying our ignorant ancestors' understanding of God is the same as Christ's understanding of God . . . and THAT is NOT TRUE! Christ revealed the TRUE NATURE of God unambiguously by His life, teachings, death and resurrection (rebirth as Spirit). He abides with us as the LIVING Word of God to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." There is only ONE Word of God . . . Jesus Christ.
Hey Mystic, thanks for your thoughts.
I'm not going to say I know without a doubt what the "Word of God" is referring to. It seems to me to be a term which embodies the creative power/force/consciousness that is the Source of our existence and our reality. How exactly that relates to Jesus, I'm still not sure I fully understand. What I do see, is that what Mike is espousing (which is what I used to believe) is confusing and inconsistent. How can it be anything other than that when it tries to take this great unfathomable Source, shrink it down to a manageable size and insist this small collection of books, referred to as the Bible, IS essentially God (or as Mike tries to side-step ... "so closely identified that they are treated as one and the same").
No, it is not a non-answer. As I said, the Bible uses the phrase 'the word of God' both for Jesus and for the Bible.
What I also made clear with the following statement in the original post is that the fact that the Bible is called the word of God does NOT mean that the Bible is God. ''It is interesting to note that in both Romans 9:17 and Galatians 3:8 God and Scripture are so closely identified that they are treated as one and the same. That does not mean that the Bible is God, but only that it is God's word.''
Yes, I know you SAID this, but it would NOT be the actual conclusion reached by following your reasoning.
(The rest of your post doesn't pertain to what I am addressing, so I've left it off.)
There is no reasoning with dogma, Pleroo. His entire belief system is built of a series of wrong "precepts and doctrines of men" established to prop up their preferred beliefs. IF the scriptures only contain divine inspiration and not God's Word . . . their entire system crumbles under its own weight. No where is it EVER said that the Bible is God's Word.
We are told to look to the scriptures because they tell us of Christ and establish His validity . . . that's it. They tell us of Him because we need to believe Him to understand the Father and our true purpose in life. The decision to revere and elevate the Bible to the status of God's Word and idolize it . . . institutionalized the ancient ignorance and superstitions of our savage and barbaric ancestors who are responsible for killing Christ.
It is a Catch 22. They have to believe the evil, savage and barbaric things attributed to God by our ignorant ancestors . . . so they have to corrupt Christ's Gospel to pretend it is consistent . . . all while claiming God is the same. But they are not saying God is the same. They are saying our ignorant ancestors' understanding of God is the same as Christ's understanding of God . . . and THAT is NOT TRUE! Christ revealed the TRUE NATURE of God unambiguously by His life, teachings, death and resurrection (rebirth as Spirit). He abides with us as the LIVING Word of God to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." There is only ONE Word of God . . . Jesus Christ.
The Scriptures are not the precepts and doctrines of men. As shown in the original post, the phrase the 'word of God' is not used only for Jesus. And the word which comes from God is infallible.
Inspiration as shown in the original post literally means God-breathed and therefore refers to the fact that the Scriptures are breathed out by God. And that makes the Scriptures God's word - the word of God.
As was also shown, Jesus called the Mosaic Law the word of God and referred to this command >>> Matthew 15:4 "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.' The command to put to death those who curse their father or mother belonged only to the Mosaic Law and does not apply today. But Jesus Himself said that God gave that command.
Here's the context:
Matthew 15:3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4] "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.' 5] "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God," 6] he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Repeated below from the original post:
For those of you who don't accept the Old Testament as the word of God because you don't like some of the things which are found in it, claiming that God would never command such a thing, notice that it was Jesus who said the following in Matthew 15:4 "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.' The command to put to death anyone who curses father or mother [under the Mosaic Law, which we are not under today] was given in Exodus 21:17, and Leviticus 20:9. Jesus therefore identified the Mosaic Law as the word of God.
The question then becomes, do you not believe what Jesus Himself said concerning the fact that God Himself gave the command as a part of the Mosaic Law that those who curse their father or mother were to be put to death? Some of you say that you will only accept what Jesus Himself says as God's word. Well, Jesus Himself said that it was the command of God to put to death under the Mosaic Law those who curse their father or mother, and He said it was the word of God. So do you believe Jesus or don't you?
And finally, your rant is a not so subtle attack and intended insult on all who you do not agree with. But you will deny it.
Good thread Mike! -- As always, you've got the usual detractors who insist that the Bible is 'a great book, but, that it is written by men, not God ... therefore, (inferred) ..."they cannot be held accountable for what it says -- and are free to pick/choose, slice/dice and interpret in any way that seems right to them."
Your claim that "the Bible doesn't simply 'contain' the Word of God, but, that it IS the inerrant Word of God" ... is not that complicated or difficult to understand. Yet, some insist on seeing/hearing: "He is saying that the Bible is God" ... or "they are worshiping the Bible" ... or "They are saying that every Word was literally dictated by God." --- Jesus apparently encountered the same mindset:
"seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive" (Matt. 13:13-14) ...... (And No! --- I'm not saying that Mike is Jesus!)
Yes, I know you SAID this, but it would NOT be the actual conclusion reached by following your reasoning.
(The rest of your post doesn't pertain to what I am addressing, so I've left it off.)
Yes, it is the actual conclusion. What do you not understand about the very simple and clear fact that both Jesus and the Bible are called 'the (W)word of God'? You've been shown from Scripture that the phrase, 'the (W)word of God' is not used only for Christ.
John applies the phrase 'the Word of God' to Jesus because He is the revealed Person of the Trinity and reveals the Father.
The Bible is the word of God because it reveals God, reveals Jesus who Himself is the Second Person of the Trinity, and reveals God's plan to man.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-03-2013 at 08:02 PM..
Good thread Mike! -- As always, you've got the usual detractors who insist that the Bible is 'a great book, but, that it is written by men, not God ... therefore, (inferred) ..."they cannot be held accountable for what it says -- and are free to pick/choose, slice/dice and interpret in any way that seems right to them."
Your claim that "the Bible doesn't simply 'contain' the Word of God, but, that it IS the inerrant Word of God" ... is not that complicated or difficult to understand. Yet, some insist on seeing/hearing: "He is saying that the Bible is God" ... or "they are worshiping the Bible" ... or "They are saying that every Word was literally dictated by God." --- Jesus apparently encountered the same mindset:
"seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive" (Matt. 13:13-14) ...... (And No! --- I'm not saying that Mike is Jesus!)
And in their insistence in denying that the Bible is the word of God, they do not even address the Scripture shown in the original post. They don't want to face the fact that God actually did command certain things in the Old Testament which they don't like, and so they will continue to say that it is the word of man rather than God's word.
Yes, it is the actual conclusion. What do you not understand about the very simple and clear fact that both Jesus and the Bible are called 'the (W)word of God'? You've been shown from Scripture that the phrase, 'the (W)word of God' is not used only for Christ.
John applies the phrase 'the Word of God' to Jesus because He is the revealed Person of the Trinity and reveals the Father.
The Bible is the word of God because it reveals God, reveals Jesus who Himself is the Second Person of the Trinity, and reveals God's plan to man.
I'll simply say that your use of "W/w" is arbitrary. Beyond that, it's obvious that we're at an impasse. I've said what I believe to be true, and I'll leave it at that.
I can at least find agreement with you that we can receive revelation and enlightenment about God through the bible and through Jesus.
What is being disproven is that the Bible is the "Inerrant Word of God."
You are not on topic. The topic is that the Bible by its own claims is the word of God. I have made it clear that this thread is not an attempt to convince skeptics that the Bible is God's word, but to show those who claim to be believers and yet deny the Bible is the word of God that the Bible does indeed make that claim for itself. Now since the Bible is the word of God it is inerrant. But as has been explained more than once already, divine inspiration refers only to the original autographs.
Again, the topic is that the Bible by its own admission is the word of God. To stay on topic you have to refute the fact that it makes that claim for itself by actually addressing the passages which make that claim. Not attempt to show so-called contradictions.
Nothing that is in the hands of men, was in the hands of men or will be in the hands of men is error free, period . . . no matter what language it is in (original or not).
Can you prove the Bible in it's original manuscripts is not 100% the way God wanted it to be?
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