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Mike, I wasn't going to respond again, but you keep saying that people are ignoring the bible verses you put forth in your OP. But the simple fact is that neither those passages, nor nowhere else in the Bible is the Bible -- a collection of writings by various human authors, voted on by various other humans as to which writings should be included in the collection and which shouldn't, leaving us with different collections which are called the Bible depending on who you speak to -- nowhere are these Bibles called the word of God.
So, when you try to equate "the Bible" to the word of God and say that it is, for all practical purposes, one and the same as God, your reasoning ends up in a pile of mess.
The Word, as I see it, is the creative power of God. I can accept that this power was abiding in the person of Jesus, and I can accept that this creative power abides in the good news contained in your bible (just as I believe that creative power abides in any words that are true and life-giving wherever those words may be found). But to say that the collection of books itself IS the word of God makes zero sense and leaves you with a mess when you follow your own reasoning through to it's conclusion, because then you have to equate the Bible to GOD. You deny that conclusion, and I understand that. But then you ought to be willing to acknowledge that your reasoning is flawed when it doesn't match the conclusion you wish to reach.
I wish that I had said this, Pleroo. Very well said! Can't rep you still.
Well, just to chime in. The many times the phrase ‘the word’ occurs in the Gospel records it usually means the ‘the Gospel message’ (e.g. Mk. 2:2; 4:33; 16:20; Lk. 3:2; Jn. 12:48; 14:24; Acts 4:4; 11:19). It does not mean ‘the whole bible’. Elsewhere in the NT the use of " the word" support the message motif: " word of God" ..." word of the Kingdom" ..." word of the cross"… “word of Christ”. These phrases are very often used concerning the Gospel about Christ. See also. Col. 3:16; cp. Matt. 13:19; John 5:24; Acts 19:10; 1 Thess. 1:8.
All the Bible is the word of God. All Scripture is God breathed. I showed in the original post that Paul, in referring to God's direct communication to Abraham, and to Pharaoh through Moses, called what God said Scripture even though no written Scripture had yet been written. Paul called the spoken words of God Scripture. Everything in the Bible was communicated (not dictated, though some of it was dictated) by God the Holy Spirit to the prophets and apostles who recorded it in writing. The entire Bible is the word of God.
Mike, I wasn't going to respond again, but you keep saying that people are ignoring the bible verses you put forth in your OP. But the simple fact is that neither those passages, nor nowhere else in the Bible is the Bible -- a collection of writings by various human authors, voted on by various other humans as to which writings should be included in the collection and which shouldn't, leaving us with different collections which are called the Bible depending on who you speak to -- nowhere are these Bibles called the word of God.
So, when you try to equate "the Bible" to the word of God and say that it is, for all practical purposes, one and the same as God, your reasoning ends up in a pile of mess.
The Word, as I see it, is the creative power of God. I can accept that this power was abiding in the person of Jesus, and I can accept that this creative power abides in the good news contained in your bible (just as I believe that creative power abides in any words that are true and life-giving wherever those words may be found). But to say that the collection of books itself IS the word of God makes zero sense and leaves you with a mess when you follow your own reasoning through to it's conclusion, because then you have to equate the Bible to GOD. You deny that conclusion, and I understand that. But then you ought to be willing to acknowledge that your reasoning is flawed when it doesn't match the conclusion you wish to reach.
Refer to post #95 which I just posted, and which answers this and shows that the entire Bible is the word of God.
Refer also to the book of Revelation, chapter one, which states at the beginning of the chapter with regard to the Revelation of that book, that the Revelation was given by God (the Father) to Jesus Christ, who communicated it to John though the mediation of His angel, to be shown to His bond-sevants. The book of Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That makes the book of Revelation the word of God.
Refer further to John 16:12-15 where Jesus said that He had many more things to say to the apostles, but that they were unable at that point to bear those things. Therefore, once He ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit who would disclose those things. Those things which the Holy Spirit disclosed to the apostles became the New Testament. This makes the New Testament the word of God.
And once again, the fact that the Bible is the word of God does not mean that the Bible is God. It means that the Bible is God's communicated message to man.
Just what is not clear to you that Jesus Himself called the Mosaic Law the word of God?
Just what is not clear to you that Paul called his message the word of God?
You have seen those passages in this thread. And you will not believe them???
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-06-2013 at 10:36 AM..
Mike, I wasn't going to respond again, but you keep saying that people are ignoring the bible verses you put forth in your OP. But the simple fact is that neither those passages, nor nowhere else in the Bible is the Bible -- a collection of writings by various human authors, voted on by various other humans as to which writings should be included in the collection and which shouldn't, leaving us with different collections which are called the Bible depending on who you speak to -- nowhere are these Bibles called the word of God.
So, when you try to equate "the Bible" to the word of God and say that it is, for all practical purposes, one and the same as God, your reasoning ends up in a pile of mess.
The Word, as I see it, is the creative power of God. I can accept that this power was abiding in the person of Jesus, and I can accept that this creative power abides in the good news contained in your bible (just as I believe that creative power abides in any words that are true and life-giving wherever those words may be found). But to say that the collection of books itself IS the word of God makes zero sense and leaves you with a mess when you follow your own reasoning through to it's conclusion, because then you have to equate the Bible to GOD. You deny that conclusion, and I understand that. But then you ought to be willing to acknowledge that your reasoning is flawed when it doesn't match the conclusion you wish to reach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I wish that I had said this, Pleroo. Very well said! Can't rep you still.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Refer to post #95 which I just posted, and which answers this and shows that the entire Bible is the word of God.
Refer also to the book of Revelation, chapter one, which states at the beginning of the chapter with regard to the revelation of that book, that the revelation was given by God (the Father) to Jesus Christ, who communicated it to John though the mediation of His angel, to be shown to His bond-sevants. That makes the book of Revelation the word of God.
Refer further to John 16:12-15 where Jesus said that He had many more things to say to the apostles, but that they were unable at that point to bear those things. Therefore, once He ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit who would disclose those things. Those things which the Holy Spirit disclosed to the apostles became the New Testament. This makes the New Testament the word of God.
That makes the book of Revelation the word of God.
And once again, the fact that the Bible is the word of God does not mean that the Bible is God. It means that the Bible is God's communicated message to man.
Just what is not clear to you that Jesus Himself called the Mosaic Law the word of God?
Just what is not clear to you that Paul called his message the word of God?
You have seen those passages in this thread. And you will not believe them???
You could not have said it any clearer or with more reason, Pleroo. That is why I repeatedly say you can NOT reason with unreasoning credulity. It is the lurkers who read these posts who will benefit, Pleroo.
You could not have said it any clearer or with more reason, Pleroo. That is why I repeatedly say you can NOT reason with unreasoning credulity. It is the lurkers who read these posts who will benefit, Pleroo.
And just what about this is not clear to you?
Refer to post #95 which I just posted, and which answers this and shows that the entire Bible is the word of God.
Refer also to the book of Revelation, chapter one, which states at the beginning of the chapter with regard to the Revelation of that book, that the Revelation was given by God (the Father) to Jesus Christ, who communicated it to John though the mediation of His angel, to be shown to His bond-sevants. The book of Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That makes the book of Revelation the word of God.
Refer further to John 16:12-15 where Jesus said that He had many more things to say to the apostles, but that they were unable at that point to bear those things. Therefore, once He ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit who would disclose those things. Those things which the Holy Spirit disclosed to the apostles became the New Testament. This makes the New Testament the word of God.
And once again, the fact that the Bible is the word of God does not mean that the Bible is God. It means that the Bible is God's communicated message to man.
Just what is not clear to you that Jesus Himself called the Mosaic Law the word of God?
Just what is not clear to you that Paul called his message the word of God?
You have seen those passages in this thread. And you will not believe them???
You could not have said it any clearer or with more reason, Pleroo. That is why I repeatedly say you can NOT reason with unreasoning credulity. It is the lurkers who read these posts who will benefit, Pleroo.
Thanks Mystic. Hopefully we all benefit, one way or another.
You haven't provided any passages that say the Bible is the word of God. And I find that your reasoning -- which equates the bible to the Word of God and says the Bible is, practically speaking, one and the same, leading to the false conclusion that the Bible is God -- is faulty.
You haven't provided any passages that say the Bible is the word of God. And I find that your reasoning -- which equates the bible to the Word of God and says the Bible is, practically speaking, one and the same, leading to the false conclusion that the Bible is God -- is faulty.
You are being purposely evasive. The Bible doesn't have to have a sentence which says with the exact words ''the Bible is the word of God'' in order to prove that it is the word of God any more than the Bible has to include the word 'Trinity' to show that the Bible teaches that God is Triune.
I explained why the Bible is the word of God and you are failing to directly address the reason I gave.
And by maintaining that if the Bible is the word of God (which it is) that it leads to a false conclusion that the Bible is God, you are are also claiming that when Paul referred to His message as the word of God (1 Thess. 2:13) that He was claiming that his message was God. Are you claiming that Paul intended to claim that his message was God?
Here is the passage. 1 Thess. 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe. So again, are you going to claim that Paul was claiming that his message was God when he called his message the word of God?
I further showed you that the book of Revelation in which John recorded the Revelation which God (the Father) gave to Jesus to give to John, is the word of God by that very fact. Are you going to deny that a Revelation which comes from God is God's word?
I also showed fromJohn 16:12-15 that the New Testament epistles are the result of revelation from God the Holy Spirit who taught the apostles the additional things which Jesus had said that they could not bear while He was still with them prior to His ascension.
What God communicates to man is His word. The Bible is God's communicated message to man, and is therefore the word of God.
No, I'm not being evasive, Mike. I simply do not agree with the leaps you are making from what the passages actually say to what you insist they mean. More fundamentally, as I've said, I find your reasoning and the conclusion it leads to untenable. Having once held that same reasoning myself, I can say that you've not ever responded to that in a way that I haven't heard before or that convinces me to reconsider.
I've already shared that I believe the "word of God" to refer to the creative life-giving power of God, and that the good news message proclaimed in the bible is life-giving. I thought we might find some meeting of the minds on that point but if we disagree on that, too, so be it. It happens.
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