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You can't come CLOSE to something you've NEVER SEEN...that is just a broad assumption and pure speculation. Without having ever actually seen the originals, we have no idea how badly the first copies were manipulated and edited. We don't even know who actually wrote the gospels...they were authorless and assigned authors...not to mention that there were hundreds of "gospels" at the time. Come on people...put your thinking caps on.
So you think that Textual Criticism is useless without the autographa? And that these contemporary scholars are misguided in continuing to speak about the "original" autograph of the text?
So you think that Textual Criticism is useless without the autographa? And that these contemporary scholars are misguided in continuing to speak about the "original" autograph of the text?
I think stating things as FACT, which cannot be supported without the original, is baseless speculation and assumption and should be stated as such. That's how you keep it real and there should be no shame in that...it's called being honest about it.
The WORD was God before the bible ever came into being. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." 1John 1:2-3
Jesus WAS and IS the WORD. The bible is not the Word.
You said you believe John 1 to be declaring Jesus to be the Word of God, and that the Word of God IS God, therefore Jesus is God.
Further, you believe the bible is the Word of God; then according to your own reasoning and interpretation of John 1:1 ... the bible IS God.
And lastly, both Jesus and the bible, in your opinion, are the Word of God ... which makes them one and the same, if one takes what you've said follows it through to it's conclusion.
That is why people have made the bible an idol. They unwittingly worship the bible and ignore the principles of Christ by condemning people who do not call the bible the breath of GOD. I can burn a stack of bibles and it will not hurt God one iota because God is not the bible nor can the bible contain Him.
As I've pointed out elsewhere, however, we can see quite clearly that even the autographa had errors in them. The fact is, inerrancy cannot be evidenced anywhere at all, and errancy can be shown just about everywhere. If one wants to assert inerrancy, it will have to be in the communication God gives to a human. Once the human interprets and attempts to communicate it in any way (speech, writing, cult, etc), it is demonstrably erroneous in many places.
No one is seeing quite clearly or demonstrated anywhere that the autographs had errors in them or that the text has not been preserved through the ages. All skeptics have is their scholarly conjecture. It is the god they have put their faith in to worship. In the end, all faiths will be tested. All who do not believe God's testimony through his special revelation in His Word are calling him a liar. The Scriptures declare it's inerrancy and authority throughout.. So take up your argument with the Boss. There's no defense council in the day of Judgment. Our only defense council is now the Judge when we stand before the KING of Kings and LORD of Lords Jesus the Christ.
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Luke 13:23-28
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
No one is seeing quite clearly or demonstrated anywhere that the autographs had errors in them or that the text has not been preserved through the ages. All skeptics have is their scholarly conjecture. It is the god they have put their faith in to worship. In the end, all faiths will be tested. All who do not believe God's testimony through his special revelation in His Word are calling him a liar. The Scriptures declare it's inerrancy and authority throughout.. So take up your argument with the Boss. There's no defense council in the day of Judgment. Our only defense council is now the Judge when we stand before the KING of Kings and LORD of Lords Jesus the Christ.
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Luke 13:23-28
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Do you believe Him?
I want you to compare a Tyndale bible, with a 1611 KJV Bible, with all the versions we have now and you can find many differences and see that through all these transliterations and translations by man, we do not have what the 100% original said. Books have also been removed and other things have been added.
Inerrant means, you can compare any bible whether now or a bible from 340AD, 1525, 1611, etc and thy all say 100% the same thing. The bibles we have today is just what God intended for us to have( Still the WORD, just minor changes here and there). The message of the bible has never changed though: to Love God, admit your a sinner, accept Christ and Love one another.
I have already stated more than once that divine inspiration refers to the original autographs only. However, the copyist errors and variations in the manuscript copies have not resulted in any loss or change in doctrine. We still have the word of God today. We still have God's message to man.
Mike in Deuteronomy 8:6 the scripture reads.
"And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, by walking in his ways and by fearing him."
I have read 16 different translations ofDeuteronomy 8:6 And every one of them (the 16 translations) is in ERROR.
Not only is there a error in translation there is an change in doctrine because of that error.
Deuteronomy 8:6 originally said
"And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, by walking in his ways and by loving him"
One doctrine is fear based and the other doctrine is love based. So we can see that all bibles today have changed the doctrine based on love to a doctrine based on fear.
Which goes to show the translators translated based on their own preference to what they believed, adding to and taking away from the scriptures in order to promote their own beliefs.
But if all bible say "by fearing him" how can we know that it should have been translated "by loving him"?
Because the oldest known manuscript in existence today is the dead sea scrolls, and they say
"And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, by walking in his ways and by loving him"
No, I do not believe that the Bible is God. I have already pointed out to you that in the original post I made a point of saying that the fact that the Bible is the word of God does NOT mean that the Bible is God. For you to persist in saying that I believe otherwise is purposeful misrepresentation of what I said.
I have also said that the fact that the Bible is the word of God means that it is God's communicated message to man.
As well, I have asked you, and you have not answered this either, 'Are you claiming that when Paul called his message the word of God, he was calling his message God? Refer to 1 Thess. 2:13.
Mike,
take into consideration the rest of what Paul said
instead of taking 1Thess.2:13 out of the context of what Paul for what you say.
Paul was talking about "The Gospel Of God" v.9 that they had 'Preached' to them.
"as it is IN truth the word of God".
Not everything Paul spoke or wrote was 'The Gospel Of God'.
So not everything Paul wrote about was 'as it is IN truth The Word Of God'.
I want you to compare a Tyndale bible, with a 1611 KJV Bible, with all the versions we have now and you can find many differences and see that through all these transliterations and translations by man, we do not have what the 100% original said. Books have also been removed and other things have been added.
Inerrant means, you can compare any bible whether now or a bible from 340AD, 1525, 1611, etc and thy all say 100% the same thing. The bibles we have today is just what God intended for us to have( Still the WORD, just minor changes here and there). The message of the bible has never changed though: to Love God, admit your a sinner, accept Christ and Love one another.
I claim by matter of faith in the power of God in His promise to preserve His God-breathed Word. If Tyndale's Bible was the Bible God preserved His Word in, He would have used it to preserve and distribute to the world the past 400 years. As said earlier, various changes in the English language that have occurred over time can and have been addressed by a good Strong's Concordance. Most authorized KJBs have successfully noted the "prevent" to "precede" and "letteth" with "hinder" for example in the note. I think this is great and fine. Where the concordance; however, disagrees with the King James Bible I believe the Concordance is wrong.
There are some SERIOUS issues with the modern versions. While they claim they do not change doctrine or instructions in righteousness, I believe they do as God instructs us to use the "Whole Council of God". One major example is the deletion of "Lucifer" in the Isaiah 14 passage. The NIV translate it as "morning star".. When looking at the Hebrew according to the scholars, this is the correct translation. The problem is Lucifer is exactly who it is talking about and this terminology is well established in the English language for us to apply in this spiritual war. Wouldn't the Luciferians at "Lucis Trust" (previously Lucifer Trust) current NGO of the United Nations LOVE for Bible believing Christians to NOT associate their SATANIC New Age influence at the United Nations. It would be great for the New Age movement for people to disconnect Alice Bailey's connection with Helena P. Blavatsky which ultimately points to the foundational theology behind Adolf Hitler in his efforts to bring in the New Millennium with the eugenic Aryan race.
This is just one example. I believe it's clear that GOD wants us to understand that He is talking about LUCIFER as the Word of God is our defense against this highly dangerous angelic entity. The Bible is not a literary masterpiece used for casual reading. It is Mankind's primary weapon given by our Divine Creator to use in defense in a dangerous Spiritual War in this cursed creation that is under the dominion and influence of demonic spiritual principalities and powers.
I do believe the God-breathed Word of God has been accurately preserved through the 1611 KJB English text as God worked through the reformation era to get His truth in the hands of the common Man, and so far I've seen nothing in textual criticism that suggests otherwise except Man's scholarly conjecture. I believe the Bible says to trust in God not Man. What Rock are we building our house upon?
Last edited by Mikelee81; 01-09-2013 at 02:11 PM..
[quote=Daniel O. McClellan;27679712]I think you might be surprised how far we actually come to that original. Additionally--and here's the part that some find hard to understand--the closer we get, the more and more it seems there may not have been a single original. Many texts seem to be based on the conflation of two or more independent versions of an event or situation. I pointed this out in another thread, but the story of Joseph's sale into Egypt is a good example. Here's what I posted:
Quote:
Quote:
The story of Joseph's sale into Egypt (Gen 37:18-36) shows these features [indications of textual seams identified from known conflations of texts, such as the Diatessaron, portions of the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls, and the epic of Gilgamesh]. There are several doublets: two decisions to kill Joseph, two plans to throw him into a pit, two arguments to save him, two passing tribes. These doublets lead to several breaks, but the divergences are the most striking. In vv. 25 and 27 it is Ishmaelites passing by, but in v. 28 it is suddenly Midianites. The Midianites draw Joseph from the pit and sell him to Ishmaelites, who then take him into Egypt. V. 36, however, says the Midianites where the ones who sold Joseph to Potiphar while in Egypt. There is simply no way to reconcile the conflict here. The verb "they lifted" in v. 28 can refer to no one but the Midianites. There is a clear and demonstrable divergence, or contradiction. When all these considerations are taken together, we see two entire narratives have been spliced together. They can be rather simply excised from the consolidation, giving us two complete and self-contained versions of the story:
Version 1:
Quote:
They said to one another, Here comes that dreamer. Come, let us kill him and throw him into one of the pits, then we can say, A savage beast devoured him. We shall see what comes of his dreams. When Joseph came up to his brothers, they stripped Joseph of his tunic, the ornamented tunic that he was wearing. Looking up, they saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead, their camels bearing gum, balm, and ladanum to be taken to Egypt. Then Judah said to his brothers, What do we gain by killing our brother and covering up his blood? Come, let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, but let us not do away with him ourselves. After all, he is our brother, our own flesh. His brothers agreed. They sold Joseph for twenty pieces of silver to the Ishmaelites, who brought Joseph to Egypt. Then they took Joseph's tunic, slaughtered a kid, and dipped the tunic in the blood. They had the ornamented tunic taken to their father, and they said, We found this. Please examine it. Is it your son's tunic or not? He recognized it, and said, My son's tunic! A savage beast devoured him! Joseph was torn by a beast! Jacob rent his clothes, put sackcloth on his loins, and observed mourning for his son many days. All his sons and daughters sought to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted, saying, No, I will go down mourning for my son in Sheol. Thus his father bewailed him.
Version 2:
Quote:
They saw him from afar, and before he came close to them they conspired to kill him. But when Reuben heard it, he tried to save him from them. He said, Let us not take his life. And Reuben went on, Shed no blood! Cast him into that pit out in the wilderness, but do not touch him yourselves--intending to save him from them and restore him to his father. They took him and cast him into the pit. The pit was empty, there was no water in it. Then they saw down to a meal. When Midianite traders passed by, they pulled Joseph up out of the pit. When Reuben returned to the pit and saw that Joseph was not in the pit, he rent his clothes. Returning to his brothers, he said, The boy is gone! Now what am I to do? The Midianites, meanwhile, sold him in Egypt to Potiphar, a courtier of Pharaoh and his chief steward.
Not a word had to be altered, deleted, or added to come up with two complete and internally consistent narratives. There is simply no question that two different traditions were combined into one at some point, which led to the contradictions and the doublets.
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