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I understand that, Wretchedelect, but I was sharing this because I read that someone said that there were no other gods. There are those who may have been called this, but I agree that there is only One True God. Jesus said that this is the Father. Thanks, God bless and peace.
Jesus cites LXX Ps 82:6 in John 10:34–35. At the time, Psalm 82 was understood as a reference to the Israelites at Sinai. Upon reception of the law, they were rendered immortal, having power over death. This rendered them deities. Upon sinning with the golden calf, however, their immortality was revoked, and they were condemned to return to mortality. This, of course, was not the original meaning of the text, but that's how it was understood by Jews of the first century CE. I discuss this in more detail in the context of an evaluation of modern LDS readings of Psalm 82 and John 10 here.
No, the Hebrew Bible actually never denies the existence of other gods. The texts you cited are highly rhetorical polemic aimed at Babylonian religion. I've discussed this at length in a few different places (none of the links are live):
I could almost accept this, that God was saying "I am so far above other gods that I do not see them as gods, there are none beside me." But the problem is the question of God being Sovereign, Creator of all things and nothing exists outside of being created by Him. So if those statements were simply rhetorical polemic of the Jewish teaching about God, they were still created beings and thus not gods even as Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 8:1-6. Unless Paul misundertood what the Jewish understanding of God is, that He alone exists of Himself and that every other so-called god was created. And in the sense of them being created, they are not gods. I have a problem with God simply being the biggest of all the eternal gods in existence, as it goes against the clearest understanding of the scriptures. Is God the only god, or isn't He? Relegating such emphatic statements by God such as, "I know of no other" and "there are none besides Me" to only rhetorical polemics simply does injustice to Him. While it certainly could be rhetorical polemics in defense of polytheism, it is most certainly a statement by God not only of His Almighty Power and Eternalness of who He is, but also of His Singular Uniqueness.
Jesus certainly would have rebuked Thomas had he said something requiring such a rebuke, and corrected Him for coming to a false conclusion. But He didn't. Having seen and felt Jesus, Thomas couldn't be skeptical of Jesus' resurrection. Psalm 35:23 may well have come to Thomas' mind at that moment. I had never thought of that before.
John 20:28 is indeed an excellent support text for Christ's deity. You are also quite right to say that John emphatically stated that Jesus, who he called 'the Word' in John 1:1, was God. John's emphasis in his gospel was on the deity of Jesus.
It is perhaps much more likely that in referring to the pre-incarnate Jesus as 'the Word', John was mainly drawing on Old Testament usage of the term, rather than on Greek philosophical ideas of the 'logos.' For instance, Genesis 15:1 states, After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great." ...15:4 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir."
I don't know if you've done any studying on Theophanies and Christophanies, but since Jesus is the revealed Person of the Trinity, these Old Testament appearances of God, were pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus. It was the second Person of the trinity who appeared to Abraham and to Moses. And so when Moses wrote concerning the word of the Lord appearing to Abram, that was a reference to the pre-incarnate Jesus. But that is perhaps getting off topic which is John 20:28 and maybe I shouldn't have brought it up.
Mike, I am glad that you are bringing up topics within this thread because we are blessing each other. I praise the Lord that Psalm 35:23 is a proof text for us to support our Trinity view because the entire bible is what we need to look at. And like you, I had that about thought Thomas referencing Ps 35:23 as well until I started digging deeper in my study as Richard brilliantly suggested that all of us should be doing in seeking the truth.
The praising of Thomas acclaiming "My Lord and my God!" must be understood within the context of 1st century usage. The first century mind was quite used to men being called 'god' or ‘lord’. However, there was no understanding such ‘titles’ made these men to be the one and the same person as the Supreme God (s).
You just proved my point. Now we can see from the book of Acts how easily first century folk were inclined to call a man "God" if he did miracles. The language of “God” or “Lord” was used in the first century world of men.
That is true, but in this case Thomas was clearly acknowledging Jesus as the true God instead of a little god?
I understand that, Wretchedelect, but I was sharing this because I read that someone said that there were no other gods. There are those who may have been called this, but I agree that there is only One True God. Jesus said that this is the Father. Thanks, God bless and peace.
Which would mean you cannot appeal to John 20:28 as evidence for a Trinitarian perspective, since you cannot show it refers specifically to Jesus as the "true God, the Second Person of the Trinity" unless you can show first that it does not just refer to Jesus as a deity.
You cannot point to a single text from anywhere in the Bible that suggests Jesus is God. You can find instances in later NT texts where he is divine, but the notion that he was actually connected with the very identity of God himself did not develop until the middle of the second century CE. Even Justin Martyr calls Jesus "another god," who is one with God "in will, not in number." John 17 also defines Jesus' oneness with God in terms of glory, and then goes on to explain that those who are saved will become one with God in the exact same way that Jesus is one with God. This, of course, cannot at all refer to ontological unity.
Ok that's it, now I need to start a new thread about whether Jesus was created, and having the scriptures to prove it.
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