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Read the whole verse. Those that believe and are baptized will be saved. Those that don't believe will not be. It says nothing about those that don't get baptized.
Again--you're reading into it. It says nothing about being saved by baptism--but only that you should baptize disciples.
I quoted the whole verse ..... didn't you read it ?
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes andisbaptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Necessary to be saved ... Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
But notabsolutely necessary ... but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Jesus includes it with being saved and not as being condemned.
A person can either believe what Jesus actually says or not.
Baptism saves because of the resurrection of Jesus.
Thanks for pointing that out. Many denominations make the claim that they are the one true church.
Hogwash!
But no one can deny that there is a true church, and it is alive and well. Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
No one has the right to say whether a group of worshipers is a true church or not. That call belongs to God, and to Him alone.
In defense of the church of Christ, not all of them pass judgement on others. I know the church of Christ I worship with does not. Neither did the last one I worshiped with.
Are there some who do? No doubt. But it's wrong to label all of them like that.
God bless you,
Katie
Katie,
Correct! When a church makes that claim, they are in effect usurping Jesus.
With that said, it should be noted that the early churches did not operate independently from one another. Paul and his delegation from the Gentile churches went to Jerusalem to meet with the other Apostles to confront Peter with his error.
James was the final decision maker of the Apostles (Acts 15:12-21)
The Gentile churches followed "the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey." (Acts 16:4)
Was it God pleasing?
So the churches were strengthened in the faith and grew daily in numbers. (Acts 16:5)
That is what one of the benefits of a denomination ...
the overseeing of fellow ministers
(and need be) rebuking of errors\false teaching by other ministers\pastors
as well as the encouraging and support of fellow ministers\pastors
The other benefit is the support of like faith believers
the collections by the gentile congregations for the Jerusalem church
Tell me....does a non-saved person get the Holy Spirit?
"I have come to seek and to save that which is lost" do you see decision theology (make your decision for Christ) in that?
This comes down to this.... is faith the work of God or a work of man?
Those who believe what God said of baptism, believe this: faith is the work of God.
Baptism unites us with Jesus in his death and resurrection (1 Peter 3:21, etc.).
It washes away our sins and brings us the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it gives us a new birth into a glorious new life with God (Titus 3:5-6).
It both empowers and symbolizes the daily repentance that characterizes the whole life of a Christian (Romans 6:1-7).
It is one of two ways mentioned in the passage by which the Church carries out Jesus' command to "make disciples" (the other being "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you").
It is not absolutely necessary since a person can come to faith through the gospel in God's word without being baptized.
It is necessary in the sense that God tells us to do it and that it provides the means of grace, the gospel of Christ, that works faith and salvation.
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With that being the foundation then I can answer your question.
Q: does a non-saved person get the Holy Spirit
A: Scripture teaches the gift of the Holy Spirit (faith) is by the work of God, not by their decision.
... Scripture teaches that a person can reject the gift of the Holy Spirit (faith), by their decision.
... Scripture teaches that a person who rejects the gift of the Holy Spirit will not be saved (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit)
The church of Christ has no creed other than what is written in God's word.
I am a member of the church of Christ because its worship is totally Biblical. It offers its worship through Jesus, the one mediator (1 Timothy 2:5)
Then it should probably be called the church of the Bible. The real church of Christ has no creed other than "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. We KNOW that Christ the Living Word of God abides with us and His Holy Spirit is the Comforter within our consciousness who leads us to the truth that God has "written in our hearts."
Then it should probably be called the church of the Bible. The real church of Christ has no creed other than "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. We KNOW that Christ the Living Word of God abides with us and His Holy Spirit is the Comforter within our consciousness who leads us to the truth that God has "written in our hearts."
"I have come to seek and to save that which is lost" do you see decision theology (make your decision for Christ) in that?
I'm a Calvinist, twin. I don't believe we are saved by a simple prayer to accept Jesus, or by a "decision". While Romans 8-9 goes into detail that the saved get saved by the will of God, and those that are not saved don't know Christ because of God's will, in chapter 10 it goes on to say that Faith is required for salvation.
I realize that we are saved by God's will...but there is also a personal, individual requirement for faith.
Quote:
This comes down to this.... is faith the work of God or a work of man?
Most definitely the work of God.
Quote:
Those who believe what God said of baptism, believe this: faith is the work of God.
Baptism unites us with Jesus in his death and resurrection (1 Peter 3:21, etc.).
I'm sorry...the Bible simply doesn't say that. Read that verse again. It's not the water of baptism that saves...but it's the pledge of a clean conscience. It's faith.
There are Biblical examples of men being saved prior to baptism.
Quote:
It washes away our sins and brings us the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it gives us a new birth into a glorious new life with God (Titus 3:5-6).
Read that verse again. Baptism is not mentioned.
Quote:
It both empowers and symbolizes the daily repentance that characterizes the whole life of a Christian (Romans 6:1-7).
Read the previous couple of chapters. It's clear that our works do not save us -- including circumcision and baptism...or any other act we may do.
Quote:
It is one of two ways mentioned in the passage by which the Church carries out Jesus' command to "make disciples" (the other being "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you").
No. It really isn't. We are not saved by being baptized, or by obeying the works. Those are what happens after we are saved.
Quote:
It is not absolutely necessary since a person can come to faith through the gospel in God's word without being baptized.
Quote:
It is necessary in the sense that God tells us to do it and that it provides the means of grace, the gospel of Christ, that works faith and salvation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
With that being the foundation then I can answer your question.
Q: does a non-saved person get the Holy Spirit
A: Scripture teaches the gift of the Holy Spirit (faith) is by the work of God, not by their decision.
... Scripture teaches that a person can reject the gift of the Holy Spirit (faith), by their decision.
... Scripture teaches that a person who rejects the gift of the Holy Spirit will not be saved (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit)
I'm not sure you really answered my question: Is it possible for a non-Christian to have the Holy Spirit in them?
I'm sorry...the Bible simply doesn't say that. Read that verse again. It's not the water of baptism that saves...but it's the pledge of a clean conscience. It's faith.
No. It really isn't. We are not saved by being baptized, or by obeying the works. Those are what happens after we are saved.
I'm not sure you really answered my question: Is it possible for a non-Christian to have the Holy Spirit in them?
Scripture simply says otherwise.
1 Peter 3:20-21
who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you. It (baptism) saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Titus 3:5-6 does so mention baptism by stating " He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit"
As Paul wrote:
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
Which is what was told to Paul earlier in Acts:
“Then he (Ananias) said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see ..... Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
Jesus commands:
"Make disciples of all nations ... [how? by baptizing and calling on the triune God] .... baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"
I'm not sure you really answered my question: Is it possible for a non-Christian to have the Holy Spirit in them?
Faith is the result of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is one of the means of grace God uses to put faith into the heart of the person.
To reject baptism as one of the means of grace is to oppose God's will to make disciples.
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