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its was made to be confusing to confuse us.. our minds will always be in a state of guilt or worry trying to meet some standard that is set somewhere by someone.
Truth is effortless Life is Real.. and its pure and you will have no questions when u find the source of true life.. life will be clear beyond the conditions of religion or any other labels of this world..
freedom is not a concept.. freedom is who we are.. but we have to lose the conditions of the mind to let life flow through us efforlessly.
Matthew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
Galatians 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
The more one humbles him/her self , confesses sin, asks forgiveness and knows he is forgiven by the sacrifice of Christ and His ressurection and asks God to help one bear fruit and not sin the more one becomes holy. Holiness leads to eternal life.
1. If you are a born again Christian, are you now considered sinless? If not, do you become sinless when you enter heaven? And if so, how was Satan and is entourage able to rebel in heaven if they were sinless beings.
No, you are considered righteous. There is a difference, but the reality is that you are considered 'just as if' you'd never sinned, also known as being justified. The two words mean the same thing but come from two different language groups.
Upon our death, we are released from 'this body of death' (Romans 7:24) because 'the wages of sin is death.' (Romans 6:23) So that we then live in an eternal state freed from the power of sin, having won the victory thought Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:57)
Satan was able to rebel because of 'free will' which I discuss in answer to your second set of questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyurban
2. Was Adam and Eve sinless before they ate the forbidden fruit? This one puzzles me because, if they were sinless and perfect at first, since they disobeyed God, wasn't they actually sinful from the beginning. You have to already be a sinner to disobey.
Man and angels were not created 'perfect' in the sense of not being able to commit sin. Upon the creation of both man and angels, God gave us 'free will', that is to say, we had the true freedom to live in obedience or disobedience to Him. Satan chose to rebel against God, having nothing other than God's word that He was Sovereign. When Satan fell, he became bound to that disobedience and remains eternally fallen from his original state. In the same way, God created man with this original and truly 'free' will. God, when He made man was not ignorant of man's future rebellion against Him, yet He created man with the ability to choose obedience or disobedience anyway. Adam was perfectly perfect in his creation, complete with a true 'free will' that everyone talks about. In this freedom choose, God gave him one command, Do not eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. This may perhaps been a metaphoric name for the tree, because until they ate of it, they didn't truly know Good AND Evil, only Good. But on the day that they ate the fruit that was forbidden by God, they became truly aware of Evil, and knew that they had done wrong for the first time since their creation (who knows how long that was). On that day, man lost true 'free will' and became a slave to sin and unrighteousness, but through Christ we become free from sin and death and slave to God and Righteousness.
Disobedience is sin, and true disobedience only comes with the choice to either obey or not. The ability to chose is not in itself sinful, it's simply a temptation, which also is not sinful. It is when the temptation brings about lust, the desire for something which is not a sinful thing, that we fall into trouble. For lust is the mother of sin when we lust for something forbidden, and when it comes into its fulness, it gives birth to sin. (James 1:14-15) The ability to choose between obedience and disobedience is truly 'free will' and this is what both Satan and Adam and had, the true ability to choose. But through Adam, man became slaves to sin, without the ability to truly choose not to disobey, and as such we do not have true 'free will' choices. This is where the doctrine of 'free will' fails, it doesn't correctly recognize our slavery to sin and bondage to Satan. So you don't have to be a sinner to sin, at least not in the case of Satan or Adam and Eve, you simply have to have the ability to choose, and thus fall into the temptation to desire something that isn't good, and that is what Adam and Eve did: they chose to give into the desires of their flesh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyurban
3. How in the world am I supposed to please God if I am forever a wicked person on this Earth? This correlates to question 1. We can't possibly do EVERYTHING perfectly. So aren't we all SOL.
Example: I am born again, now I am sinless. However, I commit a sin, now obviously I am not a born again christian. HOWEVER, if I am born again Christian and I still have sin, what's the point in trying to be righteous. This is starting to seem like a lose, lose game. Now you might say he forgives, but how do I know he has forgiven me when I am still a sinner and he says only the righteous will enter his kingdom. None of us are righteous. So will none of us enter.
As wicked unbelieving people we cannot please God. Hebrews 11:16 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that comes to God must first believe that He is [exists] and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." The idea that you are 'forever a wicked person on this Earth' is a lie that Satan wants to us to believe. If you are in Christ, if your old self has died and is nailed on the cross with Christ then you are no longer part of the 'wicked' because you are no a slave to sin because you have died to sin. (Romans 6.6-7)
So what happens when we do sin after we have become a new creation in Christ Jesus? Do we revert to being slaves to sin and death, do they have mastery over us again and we're dead to Christ? May it never be so! We have this promise from 1 John 1:5-6
5 And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Fellowship with God has to do with unconfessed sin in our life. If we continue in sin we loose fellowship with God, not our salvation. That is the wonderful promise we have in verse 9 of the passage, Jesus is 'faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' We might fall out of fellowship with God, but we can have that relationship restored by confession (to to a man but to God).
When we sin as Christians, we just confirm that we are still residing in a body of death, for the flesh is corruptable. While we have been given he victory over death through Christ Jesus, and we have also been given the strength to no longer sin, we will struggle all our earthly lives to get to the point that we no longer sin, if we ever do. Our part is to live a life as closely as we can to that of Christ, to strive daily to be conformed to his image. (Romans 8:29) Paul states that is it to that purpose, to be conformed to the image of God's Son that we have been predestined, chosen ahead of time from the foundation of the earth. Having then no more condemnation (Romans 8:1) who can separate us from the love that God has for those that are in Christ Jesus? No one, thing or circumstance can return us to the condemnation we once had as enemies to God. (Romans 8:34-39) We are no longer children of wrath, set aside for destruction, but we are children of God by adoption, heirs to the Kingdom and seal by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. We do not have to live a life of fear of falling again into condemnation, we are free the wages of sin, though we will die physically (unless the Lord return's before then) but we will not suffer the second Death, but will be part of the second Resurrection and live eternally with our Lord in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
To keep confessing the sins of the body, and most confess the same ones over and over again, is to put your focus on sin instead of Christ. You know and I know it. The Bible doesn't teach this. What it does teach is that we confess our sins when we were an unbeliever, en route to receiving Christ for our salvation. We do this once, once and for all! Once you receive Jesus, you now continually renew your mind to your new found righteousness. As you continue to live in this world, you will have times where you feel like you are out of relationship with God. Satan accuses you because you messed up here or there, people accuse you of this or that. Yet the truth is you are still righteous in Jesus. The washing of the feet is simply being reminded of who you are in Christ.
The context of 1 John 1:9 is not to unbelievers, it is to believers. It follows a stern warning to those that may think they have no sin after repentance. This is simply not true, the thought among them was that what they did in their bodies didn't matter anymore because they were spiritually cleansed. In this, they could do all sorts of things in their bodies and not be 'sinning' because it was the spirit that was saved, the body was just a vessel to carry that vessel. This is perhaps an over simplification of the Gnostic movement, but the principle is there. Thus John'd warning that 'if we say we have fellowship while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.' (vs. 6) It was dangerous ground to be walking on as a Christian to fall to the false teachings of the Gnostics. Sin in the mortal body is still sin, and that sin harms our fellowship with God and with our fellow Christians. So John tells us the remedy of a broken fellowship with God, 'confess our sins.' Why, because if we say we have no sin, we make Him a liar, not because we still are in sin, but because we are still doing that that is sin, what ever it may be. We are not perfect yet (though it can be argued that we have the power to live a life free of sin in Christ) so when we do sin, call it sin and do not say that we haven't sinned, because God is still calling it sin. So John encourage us, believers, those who are in Christ to 'confess our sins, [because] he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' Because all unrighteousness is sin, even that done after conversion and entrance into the body of Christ.
[quote=Heavenese;28284590I will return and do an in depth study on the things I've spoken on. Also the teaching that you must remember your sin before taking communion. That is one of the most sad teachings going on in the Church today! Jesus said to take the bread and wine in remembrance of Him, not in remembrance of our sin. That is the very definition of taking it in an unworthy manner. Because by the time you dread up every sin you've committed because of these bodies, you will feel unworthy and condemned to partake in the Lord's supper. You are eating and drinking condemnation onto yourself, it doesn't say this condemnation comes from God. So I'll return to talk on these things.[/QUOTE]
Again, unless we understand that Paul was talking to believers even as John was talking to believers, those who are of the household of God, we won't understand what Paul is saying. With that in mind, let's take a look at the warning Paul gives to the church.
1 Cor. 11:29-30 Whoever eats or drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. This is why many of you are weak and ill and some have died.
Who has become sick and died? Believer in Corinth. Why, because of their sinful attitudes and behavior towards other in the body of Christ. Look and the condemnation (the opposite of a commendation) that Paul brings against the church when they are gathering for feast of the Lord's Supper. Some were even drunk! They were not doing partaking of the body and blood with the right heart, they were callous, hateful and greedy, all sinful attitudes. They did not 'examine' themselves (vs 28) and thus were weak, ill and dead. Are we partaking of the body and blood of Christ with sin in our hearts? May it never be so! So we must examine ourselves, make sure there isn't a sinful attitude in us, and especially a sinful attitude toward someone else in the body of Christ! If so, leave our offering at the altar, because that is what we are partaking of, the body and blood of the offering up of the Lamb of God, and make it right, as much as it is for us to do. Otherwise, if we eat and drink the body and blood of Christ, we will be eating judgment (condemnation) on us. But if we would examine ourselves first, we would not be judged. (vs 31) Note though that this condemnation (judgment) is not the same as for unbelievers, Paul says that 'we are disciplined' so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
When we are about to share in the blood and body of the Lord's table, we must examine ourselves, see if there is an attitude of sin and confess it. Not every sin we've committed since the last time we partook of the Lord's Table, just the attitude, for it's the attitude of sin that produces actual sin. When we have done that, then what, we just acknowledge it and walk past that mirror? No, we have to do something, simple acknowledgement of sin is nothing, it's still there, so we are condemned if we eat and drink. Get rid of it through confessing to God, let him be faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Otherwise we eat and drink with sin in our hearts and thus we do it unworthily, knowing that we have sin and to do nothing about it. The two passages are complementary, Paul wants us to examine ourselves to ensure that we don't eat and drink judgment to ourselves, and John tells us how we can have fellowship with God by letting Him cleanse us of that sin in our lives, confess it.
When we are about to share in the blood and body of the Lord's table, we must examine ourselves, see if there is an attitude of sin and confess it. Not every sin we've committed since the last time we partook of the Lord's Table, just the attitude, for it's the attitude of sin that produces actual sin. When we have done that, then what, we just acknowledge it and walk past that mirror? No, we have to do something, simple acknowledgement of sin is nothing, it's still there, so we are condemned if we eat and drink. Get rid of it through confessing to God, let him be faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Otherwise we eat and drink with sin in our hearts and thus we do it unworthily, knowing that we have sin and to do nothing about it. The two passages are complementary, Paul wants us to examine ourselves to ensure that we don't eat and drink judgment to ourselves, and John tells us how we can have fellowship with God by letting Him cleanse us of that sin in our lives, confess it.
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
It is difficult to accept teaching from someone whose screenname would suggest he believes we are wretched in our Father's eyes. I know we are NOT. Our God is a loving Father and we are loved unconditionally. Our loving Father loves us and wants us to love Him and each other. He is not a Godfather who expects us to love Him OR ELSE!!
Last edited by june 7th; 02-20-2013 at 07:09 AM..
Reason: Off topic. Post needs to address OP regarding sin, as opposed to member's screen name.
I'm having a hard time right now. Idk if this thread is already somewhere else, if so just tell me.
Anywho, I'm just going to go off the top of my head. I have a few questions
1. If you are a born again Christian, are you now considered sinless? If not, do you become sinless when you enter heaven? And if so, how was Satan and is entourage able to rebel in heaven if they were sinless beings.
A. If your a Christian then you are no longer practicing sin. Therefore, your sins are no longer held against you.
2. Was Adam and Eve sinless before they ate the forbidden fruit? This one puzzles me because, if they were sinless and perfect at first, since they disobeyed God, wasn't they actually sinful from the beginning. You have to already be a sinner to disobey.
A. Yes Adam and Eve were sinless before they sinned. There were not however PERFECT. Perfection required that THEY sinned.
3. How in the world am I supposed to please God if I am forever a wicked person on this Earth? This correlates to question 1. We can't possibly do EVERYTHING perfectly. So aren't we all SOL.
A. Your not forever a wicked person. God can change you from that perception when He decides to.
Example: I am born again, now I am sinless. However, I commit a sin, now obviously I am not a born again christian. HOWEVER, if I am born again Christian and I still have sin, what's the point in trying to be righteous. This is starting to seem like a lose, lose game. Now you might say he forgives, but how do I know he has forgiven me when I am still a sinner and he says only the righteous will enter his kingdom. None of us are righteous. So will none of us enter.
I hope this makes sense. Ask me to clarify if needed.
The context of 1 John 1:9 is not to unbelievers, it is to believers. It follows a stern warning to those that may think they have no sin after repentance. This is simply not true, the thought among them was that what they did in their bodies didn't matter anymore because they were spiritually cleansed. In this, they could do all sorts of things in their bodies and not be 'sinning' because it was the spirit that was saved, the body was just a vessel to carry that vessel. This is perhaps an over simplification of the Gnostic movement, but the principle is there. Thus John'd warning that 'if we say we have fellowship while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.' (vs. 6) It was dangerous ground to be walking on as a Christian to fall to the false teachings of the Gnostics. Sin in the mortal body is still sin, and that sin harms our fellowship with God and with our fellow Christians. So John tells us the remedy of a broken fellowship with God, 'confess our sins.' Why, because if we say we have no sin, we make Him a liar, not because we still are in sin, but because we are still doing that that is sin, what ever it may be. We are not perfect yet (though it can be argued that we have the power to live a life free of sin in Christ) so when we do sin, call it sin and do not say that we haven't sinned, because God is still calling it sin. So John encourage us, believers, those who are in Christ to 'confess our sins, [because] he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' Because all unrighteousness is sin, even that done after conversion and entrance into the body of Christ.
You said the context of 1 John 1 9 was for believers. Yet I'm not totally sure that is the absolute truth. Look at the introduction of the letter, how it seems that John is for the very first time, introducing Christ to the people. Saying things like "and declare to you" as though they didn't already believe. If you look at the whole context, the letter is written to believers, but the first part is a review of what they were told from the beginning. Everything in ch. 1 of 1 John, is a review.
The Gnostics didn't just say we wouldn't sin after we were saved, they said there wasn't any sin period. That sin does not exist, that no one is a sinner. (Including the world) They also said Jesus, who is God, didn't come in the flesh. That He was just a spirit, and wasn't a man. This is what John was talking on in his letter. He is saying Jesus did come with a purpose in verse 7 which states...
"but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."
Then John goes on to say, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us". He's talking about salvation here. If we say there is no such thing as sin, Jesus can't save us can He? So finally you come to ch. 2 where John make it plain why he reviewed salvation.
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
He's reviewing so they won't fall for the gnostic's teachings. We also know by this time, the gnostics were writing their own gospels, and they were circulating. John reviews with the Church so they wouldn't sin. (They wouldn't go off an fulfill the lusts of the flesh, saying sin itself doesn't exist) Yet if they should sin at all, Jesus Himself is the propitiation for our sins. That His blood covered that sin as well. He's telling us to once again look towards Jesus, and know we are still righteous in Him.
It was during the days of the Law, that you were constantly reminded of sin. You were constantly reminded of your unworthiness in God's presence. That you had to keep telling God you're sorry for breaking His laws, and therefore you were condemned ultimately. Yet now, we can rest, because Jesus have taken all of our sins, once and for all. We now have a good conscience towards God because of Jesus. We can come bodly before Him, without fear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
Again, unless we understand that Paul was talking to believers even as John was talking to believers, those who are of the household of God, we won't understand what Paul is saying. With that in mind, let's take a look at the warning Paul gives to the church.
1 Cor. 11:29-30 Whoever eats or drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. This is why many of you are weak and ill and some have died.
Who has become sick and died? Believer in Corinth. Why, because of their sinful attitudes and behavior towards other in the body of Christ. Look and the condemnation (the opposite of a commendation) that Paul brings against the church when they are gathering for feast of the Lord's Supper. Some were even drunk! They were not doing partaking of the body and blood with the right heart, they were callous, hateful and greedy, all sinful attitudes. They did not 'examine' themselves (vs 28) and thus were weak, ill and dead. Are we partaking of the body and blood of Christ with sin in our hearts? May it never be so! So we must examine ourselves, make sure there isn't a sinful attitude in us, and especially a sinful attitude toward someone else in the body of Christ! If so, leave our offering at the altar, because that is what we are partaking of, the body and blood of the offering up of the Lamb of God, and make it right, as much as it is for us to do. Otherwise, if we eat and drink the body and blood of Christ, we will be eating judgment (condemnation) on us. But if we would examine ourselves first, we would not be judged. (vs 31) Note though that this condemnation (judgment) is not the same as for unbelievers, Paul says that 'we are disciplined' so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
When we are about to share in the blood and body of the Lord's table, we must examine ourselves, see if there is an attitude of sin and confess it. Not every sin we've committed since the last time we partook of the Lord's Table, just the attitude, for it's the attitude of sin that produces actual sin. When we have done that, then what, we just acknowledge it and walk past that mirror? No, we have to do something, simple acknowledgement of sin is nothing, it's still there, so we are condemned if we eat and drink. Get rid of it through confessing to God, let him be faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Otherwise we eat and drink with sin in our hearts and thus we do it unworthily, knowing that we have sin and to do nothing about it. The two passages are complementary, Paul wants us to examine ourselves to ensure that we don't eat and drink judgment to ourselves, and John tells us how we can have fellowship with God by letting Him cleanse us of that sin in our lives, confess it.
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
Yes, the people came together in drunkedness and in other frivolous ways when they came to partake of the Lord's supper. Of course we know that's not the right way to come together, because Jesus Himself said as often as you partake, do it in remembrance of Him. Yet notice what Paul particularly said about the people. He said they fail to discern the Lord's "body". He didn't say they fail to discern the Lord's blood! Remember, there are two parts to communion. The bread and the wine. The bread represent Jesus' body, which was broken for our healing. The wine represent Jesus' blood, for the forgiveness of our sins. (His blood was the sign of the new covenant, and it's by His blood we are made a new creature and are righteous).
Paul said many were sick because they fail to discern the Lord's body. Notice the word Paul wrote in saying they "fell asleep". This wording is used for when a believer dies. So even though some were drunk, and others took communion for other reasons that weren't good, they still died believers because they did discern the Lord's blood. Just like many today know Jesus died for our sins. What they fail know was the meaning behind the bread. That Jesus not only took our sins, but also took our sicknesses and diseases. It's because they didn't remember the reason for the bread, they took communion in an unworthy manner. Yes they were drunk, yes they had all kinds of issues, but the reason why they were sick was because they didn't remember what the Lord has done for them concerning health. They didn't remember the Lord, as He commanded.
This is what examining yourself means. Examine why are you taking communion. If you see the bread representing your right for health in Jesus, and if you see the blood as your right to righteouness in Jesus, then you are taking it in a worthy manner. You are then fulfilling the Lord's command, in taking the supper in remembrance of Him.
Now there's a worst teaching than what the corinthians did. The corinthians failed to understand the meaning behind the bread, and that was why they drank judgment onto themselves. (Again this judgment didn't come from God, but from themselves) Yet now we are taught to remember our sins before communion! In essence the corinthians didn't realize Jesus took their sicknesses, so they retained them as though Jesus didn't take them. Now people are remembering there sins, as though Jesus didn't take them. So you have people walking around condemned, even afraid to take communion because they don't feel worthy. That they themselves must make ammends and be perfect, before they have a right to partake. This is extremely sad! It's because you are remembering Jesus, that you partake in the first place! Remembering that Jesus took our sicknesses, remembering He took our sins, and we are now whole (salvation means more than just being saved from Hell). The whole thing is to help us remember, as we continue to live in these bodies and among the world.
Confession of sins to God is basically saying Jesus death on the cross wasn't enough. God has place all our sins, our past sins/and sins yet to come onto Jesus. His blood continually washes us, and that is all God sees. What we need to do when we stumble/sin, is to again look at who we are in Jesus. The only reason why we stumble today, is because our mind is still being renewed. If you still feel like you can please God on your effort, you will stumble and fumble again and again because these bodies are weak. Yet if you continually change your mind, truly identifying yourself in Christ, you will begin to live just like Him. As Jesus said that He is the vine, and we are the branches. Without Him we can do nothing.
I'm having a hard time right now. Idk if this thread is already somewhere else, if so just tell me.
Anywho, I'm just going to go off the top of my head. I have a few questions
1. If you are a born again Christian, are you now considered sinless? If not, do you become sinless when you enter heaven? And if so, how was Satan and is entourage able to rebel in heaven if they were sinless beings.
2. Was Adam and Eve sinless before they ate the forbidden fruit? This one puzzles me because, if they were sinless and perfect at first, since they disobeyed God, wasn't they actually sinful from the beginning. You have to already be a sinner to disobey.
3. How in the world am I supposed to please God if I am forever a wicked person on this Earth? This correlates to question 1. We can't possibly do EVERYTHING perfectly. So aren't we all SOL.
Example: I am born again, now I am sinless. However, I commit a sin, now obviously I am not a born again christian. HOWEVER, if I am born again Christian and I still have sin, what's the point in trying to be righteous. This is starting to seem like a lose, lose game. Now you might say he forgives, but how do I know he has forgiven me when I am still a sinner and he says only the righteous will enter his kingdom. None of us are righteous. So will none of us enter.
I hope this makes sense. Ask me to clarify if needed.
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
Paul said many were sick because they fail to discern the Lord's body. Notice the word Paul wrote in saying they "fell asleep". This wording is used for when a believer dies. So even though some were drunk, and others took communion for other reasons that weren't good, they still died believers because they did discern the Lord's blood. Just like many today know Jesus died for our sins. What they fail know was the meaning behind the bread. That Jesus not only took our sins, but also took our sicknesses and diseases. It's because they didn't remember the reason for the bread, they took communion in an unworthy manner. Yes they were drunk, yes they had all kinds of issues, but the reason why they were sick was because they didn't remember what the Lord has done for them concerning health. They didn't remember the Lord, as He commanded.
This is what examining yourself means. Examine why are you taking communion. If you see the bread representing your right for health in Jesus, and if you see the blood as your right to righteouness in Jesus, then you are taking it in a worthy manner. You are then fulfilling the Lord's command, in taking the supper in remembrance of Him.
Well, that cleared up some things for me. I see you one who has fallen into the false health and welfare doctrine, or at least some part of it. Christians get sick quite apart from failing to discern Chris's Body correctly. They get sick because we live in a fallen world, while we are in Christ, we still live in bodies that are subject to the natural order of things, suck as illness and why we still die physically.
I also notices that you deny that Paul commands us to examine ourselves for the purpose of not bringing condemnation on ourselves. I'm sorry, but the context of Paul's warning, reason and command is not simply so that we can be free of illnesses in the world, it's so that we don't bring God's discipline on ourselves, which may lead to weakness and illness and even death as was true in the case of the Corinthian church, we can become weak, sick and die quite apart from it as well. No, we are to judge ourselves so that we are not judged by God. The reason for judging ourselves is so that we can partake of the body and blood of Christ worthily, and in the context of the Corinthian church, they have sinful attitudes that kept them from doing that. What you are saying is that, after we correctly examine ourselves, we don't have to do anything about what we have found, just let those sinful attitudes remain, so long as we understand that Christ died for our wellness and forgiveness of sins. This is a gross misinterpretation of the passage. God does not discipline His children for a simple misunderstanding of what the body and blood of Christ represent, He disciplines those He loves who have sinned. If you think that a Christian can sin after salvation and not pay any price for that disobedience, then you do not understand the chastening of the Lord.
No where in the Scriptures does it state that we must confess our sins for salvation. The closest we can some to any such statement is in 1 Jn. 1:9, which states that, 'he will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' Elsewhere, however, when it talks about confession for salvation, it talks about confessing Christ, not sin. Even in the other two letters from John confession is not of sin for salvation, but of Jesus Christ, thus, John is not speaking of initial remission of sin for salvation here, but for continued fellowship with God and other believers. Repent is more correctly used for sin, the act of changing out minds about it and turning from sin.
I wish (pray) that you could see that doing nothing about the sin that we commit after coming to Christ in Faith has consequences. I have not said that the time before taking of the Lord's Table is to be set aside for confessing, naming every sin we may have ever committed since the last time (presumably at conversion according to your understanding) we confessed. No, it's simply confessing that we have sinned, and may still harbor sinful attitudes toward one another. Your idea of believers spending hours confessing every last sin they've committed, concentrating on their sin is a ridiculous one and one that has not been supported by anyone that I've read on this thread. You are so against the biblical understanding of self examination that you envision something that no one here is claiming. I don't know where you got this idea, of who you may have been taught this by, but it's very wrong. We cannot examine ourselves and simply let what we have discovered remain. If you want to call whatever it is that a Christian does with what they find when they examine themselves other than confession, then do that, but the end result is the same, you've turned it over to God's control so that you do not eat and drink condemnation upon yourself, so that you are not judged by the Lord and disciplined.
If you cannot see that, then I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to it, nothing else I can say or show from the scriptures will change what you believe.
It is difficult to accept teaching from someone whose screenname would suggest he believes we are wretched in our Father's eyes. I know we are NOT. Our God is a loving Father and we are loved unconditionally. Our loving Father loves us and wants us to love Him and each other. He is not a Godfather who expects us to love Him OR ELSE!!
Well, I was wretched, without hope outside of Christ. Then he saved me, changed me into a new creation and gave me power of eternal life. But I still live in this body of death, I still sin and in so doing I see what a wretched creature I truly was. And every time sin rears it's head within in me (which is actually me falling into the temptation of the desires that dwell within me) I realize the even more the wretchedness of my previous estate. But even in that wretched estate, God rescued me through His election of me, predestining me to be conformed into the image of His Son. I am still alive in this wretched old body, but thanks be to God that He has given me the victory over the sting of Death!
You are right, God is not some movie styled Italian Godfather watching (waiting) for His children to sin and the rushes in to punish them. But the Father does discipline, chasten if you will, His children with they disobey (all sin is disobedience) and it shows that He is loving when He does discipline us (Heb. 12:7-10).
Blessings In Christ,
Matthew
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