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Well, that cleared up some things for me. I see you one who has fallen into the false health and welfare doctrine, or at least some part of it. Christians get sick quite apart from failing to discern Chris's Body correctly. They get sick because we live in a fallen world, while we are in Christ, we still live in bodies that are subject to the natural order of things, suck as illness and why we still die physically.
I also notices that you deny that Paul commands us to examine ourselves for the purpose of not bringing condemnation on ourselves. I'm sorry, but the context of Paul's warning, reason and command is not simply so that we can be free of illnesses in the world, it's so that we don't bring God's discipline on ourselves, which may lead to weakness and illness and even death as was true in the case of the Corinthian church, we can become weak, sick and die quite apart from it as well. No, we are to judge ourselves so that we are not judged by God. The reason for judging ourselves is so that we can partake of the body and blood of Christ worthily, and in the context of the Corinthian church, they have sinful attitudes that kept them from doing that. What you are saying is that, after we correctly examine ourselves, we don't have to do anything about what we have found, just let those sinful attitudes remain, so long as we understand that Christ died for our wellness and forgiveness of sins. This is a gross misinterpretation of the passage. God does not discipline His children for a simple misunderstanding of what the body and blood of Christ represent, He disciplines those He loves who have sinned. If you think that a Christian can sin after salvation and not pay any price for that disobedience, then you do not understand the chastening of the Lord.
No where in the Scriptures does it state that we must confess our sins for salvation. The closest we can some to any such statement is in 1 Jn. 1:9, which states that, 'he will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' Elsewhere, however, when it talks about confession for salvation, it talks about confessing Christ, not sin. Even in the other two letters from John confession is not of sin for salvation, but of Jesus Christ, thus, John is not speaking of initial remission of sin for salvation here, but for continued fellowship with God and other believers. Repent is more correctly used for sin, the act of changing out minds about it and turning from sin.
I wish (pray) that you could see that doing nothing about the sin that we commit after coming to Christ in Faith has consequences. I have not said that the time before taking of the Lord's Table is to be set aside for confessing, naming every sin we may have ever committed since the last time (presumably at conversion according to your understanding) we confessed. No, it's simply confessing that we have sinned, and may still harbor sinful attitudes toward one another. Your idea of believers spending hours confessing every last sin they've committed, concentrating on their sin is a ridiculous one and one that has not been supported by anyone that I've read on this thread. You are so against the biblical understanding of self examination that you envision something that no one here is claiming. I don't know where you got this idea, of who you may have been taught this by, but it's very wrong. We cannot examine ourselves and simply let what we have discovered remain. If you want to call whatever it is that a Christian does with what they find when they examine themselves other than confession, then do that, but the end result is the same, you've turned it over to God's control so that you do not eat and drink condemnation upon yourself, so that you are not judged by the Lord and disciplined.
If you cannot see that, then I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to it, nothing else I can say or show from the scriptures will change what you believe.
Blessings In Christ,
Matthew
God doesn't give us sicknesses to teach us a lesson. Sickness is apart of the curse of sin. If anyone leans on the arm of the body, will reap the results of the body. Yet besides all that, this thing about confession of sin...
If this was such a vital teaching to the Church, why didn't Jesus tell Peter to confess to his lying in saying he didn't know Him? Why don't we see this teaching throughout the book of Acts? Why didn't Paul tell the Corinthian church to confess their sins? You would argue Paul did just that when he said examine yourselves, but he was only talking about this concerning the Lord's Supper. So we only have to confess our sins only before taking communion, or are we suppose to confess our sins all the time?
Yet as I said, the text clearly shows us the corinthian church failed to disern the Lord's body concerning communion, and we know there are two components to it. Why did it only point out "failing to discern the Lord's body" and not the blood? That is the key when figuring out what Paul is talking about in taking the Lord's supper unworthily. If you think they took the whole thing unworthily, then you will miss it because Paul only stated they failed to discern the Lord's body. (And that was why they were sick and dying when they didn't have to) Speak to that for me.
Now again about 1 John, I've shown you the context. It is very clearly a review of who Jesus is and why He came. It is evidenced when he says he was declaring to them about the things he seen and so forth. It's almost as if the people John was writing to, weren't believers, and he is preaching to them. Then everything is cleared up in ch. 2 verse 1, he says he is writing these things so we would not sin. So we would not fall into the lies of the gnostics, and believe sin doesn't exist at all. Yet listen, I'm not surprised at your reluctance to accept this, even though the evidence is right there. My own father couldn't understand this teaching when I first told him, and even now he still has to think on it because of what he, and generations of Christians have been taught.
Think about it, I'm sure most Christians constantly confess their sins, yet what have that done for us? I've yet to see the Church operating like it was operating when Paul and the boys were on the earth. Confession of sins is a wrong tradition, that has been in the Church for a long time. Again if it was so important, we should have at least a couple of examples in the book of Acts when this was going on. We should have seen Jesus tell Peter to confess to his sin of lying about not knowing Him. We should have seen Jesus teach this in the Gospel of John, when He was teaching a lot of things right before He was arrested.
You asked me that doing nothing about the sin has consequences. My question to you is why are you sinning in the first place? Is it not because of the feelings of your body? Do you think you will change the feelings of your body? Not going to happen. The body wasn't born again, and therefore it is still weak. Only your spirit was born again, born with Christ's nature. It is there where you will find the strength to live righteously. So when you sin, do what 1 John 2 1-2 states, look to your righteousness in Christ. When you say we must confess our sins, you are saying that sin you committed wasn't immediately covered by Christ's blood. That now you have to do something, in order to be righteous again, or else you will be sinful. The problem is if you have to do something (confess your sin) to be righteous again, it's an addition onto what Jesus has already done. It's like saying what Jesus did wasn't enough.
Also, you mentioned about Paul saying if we judged ourselves, we won't be judged. Yet your translation is not accurate. 1 Corinthians 11 31 states...
"But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged."
That word rightly is a very key word, without it you would miss the whole point in what Paul was saying. Think about it, you know what is sin, and you know if your actions are sinful or not. Yet if you said those sins disconnected your relationship with God in any way, that you have to tell God you're sorry or else you will live in sin, you haven't judged yourself rightly. Paul is saying if we would judge ourselves in Christ, we would not be judged. That all of our sins were judged on Christ, and as a result we are righteous because of Him. This is judging yourself rightly, because you can't be judged for a sin that was already judged. (In court you can't be tried twice for the same crime)
Yet there are people who are walking around sorrowful, always confessing sin that was already judged, and therefore eating and drinking judgement on ourselves. We partake in the Lord's supper to remember what He did for us, that we are righteous in Him. Not to dread up the same sins, as though Jesus' death on the cross wasn't enough.
Last edited by Heavenese; 02-21-2013 at 03:49 PM..
Actually I made a mistake in my understanding of what Paul meant in "failing to discern the Lord's body". It wasn't just talking about the bread, but His body as a whole. (Which includes the blood) Yet the point still stands. The bread is His body that was broken for us. It was for our right to health in Christ. The blood was the sign of the New Covenant, our right to righteousness in Christ. We eat and drink because our sicknesses and sins have been placed and judged on Christ. We don't confess to what already has been judged, and then partake. We are then eating and drinking judgment on ourselves. That is why we must judge ourselves rightly. Judge ourselves in Christ.
[quote=Heavenese;28354431]God doesn't give us sicknesses to teach us a lesson. Sickness is apart of the curse of sin. If anyone leans on the arm of the body, will reap the results of the body. Yet besides all that, this thing about confession of sin...
If this was such a vital teaching to the Church, why didn't Jesus tell Peter to confess to his lying in saying he didn't know Him? Why don't we see this teaching throughout the book of Acts? Why didn't Paul tell the Corinthian church to confess their sins? You would argue Paul did just that when he said examine yourselves, but he was only talking about this concerning the Lord's Supper. So we only have to confess our sins only before taking communion, or are we suppose to confess our sins all the time?
Yet as I said, the text clearly shows us the corinthian church failed to disern the Lord's body concerning communion, and we know there are two components to it. Why did it only point out "failing to discern the Lord's body" and not the blood? That is the key when figuring out what Paul is talking about in taking the Lord's supper unworthily. If you think they took the whole thing unworthily, then you will miss it because Paul only stated they failed to discern the Lord's body. (And that was why they were sick and dying when they didn't have to) Speak to that for me.
Now again about 1 John, I've shown you the context. It is very clearly a review of who Jesus is and why He came. It is evidenced when he says he was declaring to them about the things he seen and so forth. It's almost as if the people John was writing to, weren't believers, and he is preaching to them. Then everything is cleared up in ch. 2 verse 1, he says he is writing these things so we would not sin. So we would not fall into the lies of the gnostics, and believe sin doesn't exist at all. Yet listen, I'm not surprised at your reluctance to accept this, even though the evidence is right there. My own father couldn't understand this teaching when I first told him, and even now he still has to think on it because of what he, and generations of Christians have been taught.
Think about it, I'm sure most Christians constantly confess their sins, yet what have that done for us? I've yet to see the Church operating like it was operating when Paul and the boys were on the earth. Confession of sins is a wrong tradition, that has been in the Church for a long time. Again if it was so important, we should have at least a couple of examples in the book of Acts when this was going on. We should have seen Jesus tell Peter to confess to his sin of lying about not knowing Him. We should have seen Jesus teach this in the Gospel of John, when He was teaching a lot of things right before He was arrested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
You asked me that doing nothing about the sin has consequences. My question to you is why are you sinning in the first place? Is it not because of the feelings of your body? Do you think you will change the feelings of your body? Not going to happen. The body wasn't born again, and therefore it is still weak. Only your spirit was born again, born with Christ's nature. It is there where you will find the strength to live righteously. So when you sin, do what 1 John 2 1-2 states, look to your righteousness in Christ. When you say we must confess our sins, you are saying that sin you committed wasn't immediately covered by Christ's blood. That now you have to do something, in order to be righteous again, or else you will be sinful. The problem is if you have to do something (confess your sin) to be righteous again, it's an addition onto what Jesus has already done. It's like saying what Jesus did wasn't enough.
I see the problem now, you are mistaking me for a 'holiness' preacher, that if we die with unconfessed sin we have somehow lost our salvation and are back in condemnation and going to end up in the Lake of Fire. This is neither what I'm saying nor what Paul or John, or any of the other writers have said. Anyone that believes that has misread the texts and have poorly understood them. I have never in any way, shape or form said that confess of sin is for salvation, at least, not for release from our condemnation such as the rest of the world has, rather it's always for spiritual restoration (which shares a primary root with salvation).
But James also tells us to 'confess your sins to one another.' (James 5:16) The context again is for illness or weakness (two different Greek words). While it may be a physical ailment for which they are sick, they are also spiritually weak. This is made clear by the statement in verse 15, 'and if he has committed any sins, they will beforgiven.' This is followed by 'Therefore, confess your sins to one another.' This is not for salvation, that has already been taken care of at the moment of conversion by repentance (from a sinful life) and confession of Jesus as Lord. The confession here is not for salvation, James is after all speaking to believers, but for restoration to full health but physical and spiritual. That is not to say that confessing sins will necessarily make one hale again, but is will restore the spiritual health of the person. Sickness isn't always because any particular sin, it's part of the curse, and while we have spiritual victory over the curse of sin, we still die as a consequence of the curse over creation because of sin. Clearly the confession of sin for restoration purposes (and I believe this is a soul matter and not a physical matter) is taught in the Bible.
Thus, when we judge ourselves and see that there is some sinful attitude in us, and we confess that sin (not every sin that we may have committed, just the fact that we sinned) then Jesus, who is faithful and righteous, will forgive them and restore us. The other option is to have God judge us and discipline us, which in the case of the Corinthian church, was making them ill and even leading to their death. This could have been avoided if they had 'judged' themselves and their sin prior to eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ in an unworthy manner, that is, with known and willful sin in their hearts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Also, you mentioned about Paul saying if we judged ourselves, we won't be judged. Yet your translation is not accurate. 1 Corinthians 11 31 states...
"But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged."
That word rightly is a very key word, without it you would miss the whole point in what Paul was saying. Think about it, you know what is sin, and you know if your actions are sinful or not. Yet if you said those sins disconnected your relationship with God in any way, that you have to tell God you're sorry or else you will live in sin, you haven't judged yourself rightly. Paul is saying if we would judge ourselves in Christ, we would not be judged. That all of our sins were judged on Christ, and as a result we are righteous because of Him. This is judging yourself rightly, because you can't be judged for a sin that was already judged. (In court you can't be tried twice for the same crime)
There is no 'rightly' in the Greek, it was added by the translators. The word there is διακρίνω [Stong's Greek 1252: diakrino /dee·ak·ree·no/], which from the root word used in at the end of the sentence 'judged' κρίνω [Stron'gs Greek 2919: krino /kree·no/]. It simply means to look at ourselves and make sure we are eating in a worthy matter, there's no 'rightly' in the verse. The problem that the Corinthian church was having is that they were not examining themselves at all and so were eating and drinking judgement to themselves.
I wish you could see and understand that confessing sin is not for initial salvation, but it is in a sense for our continued salvation with the idea of sanctification and not loss of salvation. I've never held that position because I believe the Scripture teach differently. Don't get me wrong, I'm not OSAS, well I am, but I would caveat that with, If Saved! "They went away from us... to prove that they all were not of us." Anyone that thinks they have had a 'conversion experience' and continues to sin willfully because they can simply confess their sin and be restored had no idea what grace or repentance really is and I would say that they probably were never saved to begin with. But I can't know their heart, only God can, all I can do is show them that the do err from the way and pray to restore them, even though they may never have been of us to begin with.
I see the problem now, you are mistaking me for a 'holiness' preacher, that if we die with unconfessed sin we have somehow lost our salvation and are back in condemnation and going to end up in the Lake of Fire. This is neither what I'm saying nor what Paul or John, or any of the other writers have said. Anyone that believes that has misread the texts and have poorly understood them. I have never in any way, shape or form said that confess of sin is for salvation, at least, not for release from our condemnation such as the rest of the world has, rather it's always for spiritual restoration (which shares a primary root with salvation).
But James also tells us to 'confess your sins to one another.' (James 5:16) The context again is for illness or weakness (two different Greek words). While it may be a physical ailment for which they are sick, they are also spiritually weak. This is made clear by the statement in verse 15, 'and if he has committed any sins, they will beforgiven.' This is followed by 'Therefore, confess your sins to one another.' This is not for salvation, that has already been taken care of at the moment of conversion by repentance (from a sinful life) and confession of Jesus as Lord. The confession here is not for salvation, James is after all speaking to believers, but for restoration to full health but physical and spiritual. That is not to say that confessing sins will necessarily make one hale again, but is will restore the spiritual health of the person. Sickness isn't always because any particular sin, it's part of the curse, and while we have spiritual victory over the curse of sin, we still die as a consequence of the curse over creation because of sin. Clearly the confession of sin for restoration purposes (and I believe this is a soul matter and not a physical matter) is taught in the Bible.
Thus, when we judge ourselves and see that there is some sinful attitude in us, and we confess that sin (not every sin that we may have committed, just the fact that we sinned) then Jesus, who is faithful and righteous, will forgive them and restore us. The other option is to have God judge us and discipline us, which in the case of the Corinthian church, was making them ill and even leading to their death. This could have been avoided if they had 'judged' themselves and their sin prior to eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ in an unworthy manner, that is, with known and willful sin in their hearts.
There is no 'rightly' in the Greek, it was added by the translators. The word there is διακρίνω [Stong's Greek 1252: diakrino /dee·ak·ree·no/], which from the root word used in at the end of the sentence 'judged' κρίνω [Stron'gs Greek 2919: krino /kree·no/]. It simply means to look at ourselves and make sure we are eating in a worthy matter, there's no 'rightly' in the verse. The problem that the Corinthian church was having is that they were not examining themselves at all and so were eating and drinking judgement to themselves.
I wish you could see and understand that confessing sin is not for initial salvation, but it is in a sense for our continued salvation with the idea of sanctification and not loss of salvation. I've never held that position because I believe the Scripture teach differently. Don't get me wrong, I'm not OSAS, well I am, but I would caveat that with, If Saved! "They went away from us... to prove that they all were not of us." Anyone that thinks they have had a 'conversion experience' and continues to sin willfully because they can simply confess their sin and be restored had no idea what grace or repentance really is and I would say that they probably were never saved to begin with. But I can't know their heart, only God can, all I can do is show them that the do err from the way and pray to restore them, even though they may never have been of us to begin with.
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
To your point about confession of sin not being initial when a person receives Christ, you are confessing to your sinful nature in order to receive Him. By default you're confessing you need God's grace because you are sinner.
I do agree with what James said, confessing your sins to each other. Yet notice what it doesn't say. It doesn't say we should confess our sins to God. Why is that? It seemed like a great spot to mention it. Again, why didn't Jesus tell Peter to confess to his sin of lying? Why don't we see Christians confessing their sins in the Book of Acts? I'm sure if I asked you, you would say confessing your sins is a very vital teaching to the Church. If it were so vital, how come the NT letters don't cover it in great detail?
James said to confess our sins to one another. At first I thought he meant we should tell each other things we are struggling with, so we can hold each other accountable. Yet now what I think he means is if we sin against one another, we need to go to that person and set things right. (Following up Jesus' message about leaving your gift on the altar, and setting things right with a brother) Because think about it, if you wrong your brother or sister, they will be affected by it, and may hold it against you. If you hurt a brother or sister, now you are becoming a stumbling block to them. Unlike God who sees us through Christ, the people we have hurt may not forgive us. So that is why I believe James said to confess our sins to one another. Yet again, he didn't say confess our sins to God anywhere in that whole text.
With all that said, I don't mistake you as a holiness person. I know what you're saying, and I should have been more clear in my speech. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe if we sin, there is some kind of disconnect with God. That once you confess your sin, a spiritual connection is re-established. I guess in other words, if you don't confess your sins, you won't grow spiritually.
If that is the case, even though we are confessing our sins, it doesn't look like a lot of spiritual growth is going on. I mean I'm talking hardcore believers, who confess their sins, are still in some of the same things they've been dealing with ever since the early days of being born again. Most Christians can't handle solid food, that is going into the deeper things of God, yet we've been confessing our sins the whole time. It's because we keep looking at ourselves, instead of looking at ourselves in Christ. Scripture says whatever is not of faith, is sin.
Confessing your sins to God puts an emphasis on sin. It keeps our mind on sin because I'm sure if I asked you will there be a day where we won't sin while we are on this earth, you will tell me no. So as long as I'm on this earth, I will be confessing my sins until the day I die. Yet look at what 1 John 3 9 says...
"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
So how do you explain that? Of course this is just more evidence to 1 John ch. 1 being a review. How can a believer not sin? Simple, Go back and read 1 John 2 1-2. Jesus Himself is the propitiation of our sins. We may or may not stumble/sin because of these bodies, but those sins were also forgiven at the cross. To grow spiritually, instead of confessing your sins to God, thank God for Jesus, and that I'm forgiven because of what He did.
Finally, you're right about the greek concerning that word "rightly", in the verses where Paul talked on examining ourselves. I don't know why they added the word, it does seem to be in a few translations (I use mostly only the NKJV and the NASB) Yet eating and drinking in a worthy manner simply means doing it in remembrance of Jesus. Remember His body that was broken for our healing, His blood that cleanses us, that both makes us whole. They (Corinthians) certainly weren't remembering Jesus, or else they wouldn't have been doing what they were doing, not even waiting for their brothers and sister before the meal. Paul said they were weak and sick because they fail to discern the Lord's body, not because they didn't confess their sins. They fail to understand the elements, and Paul even reviews what the elements stood for in the text.
However again, how do you know confessing you sins is how you judge yourself? What if "judging yourself" simply means stop doing what you know is wrong? In other words there would be a stronger case for judging yourselves meaning to set things right, versus confessing your sins. Now if setting things right required doing something that took time, how long would you have to wait before you could partake of the Lord's Supper? The best explanation for what Paul meant, is to do what Jesus told us to do. Do it in remembrance of Him. Remember that all your sins are forgiven, and you are righteous by the shedding of His blood. You are now healthy and whole, because His body was broken and battered. When you remember who you are in Christ, you will wait for your brother, so you can eat and drink together. You won't come together drunk with wine, and you won't be doing all of what the Corinthian church was doing because when you have Christ on your mind, why would you want to do those things?
I don't know what else to say. You seem to me to be explaining away what the bible clearly teaches. The bible doesn't tell us to confess our sins for salvation, it tells us to repent of them. What I was saying is the that the confession of sin in both the James and 1 John passage is not for salvation but sanctification. If we say that we haven't sinned, when we clearly have, we make God a liar. Because of unconfessed sin we can be sick and weak, expecially in a spiritual sense. But that is an extreme case of willful sin in rebellion to God, even for a Christian. Even for a believer who is growing by leaps and bounds, sin will evidence itself in their (our) lives. That there is sin in our lives doesn't mean that there is not growth. I don't know where you get this, because it's not from me. Our life in Christ is not about confessing our every sin every time it happens, that would be quite burdensome, even more burdensome then the Law was. You obviously are not understanding a word I'm saying because of your clear aversion to confession, you are so obverse to it that you read more into our conversation than is there. And for that reason, that because I'm wrong and your right, but because you cannot even hear what I'm actually saying, I am withdrawing from this conversation.
I don't know what else to say. You seem to me to be explaining away what the bible clearly teaches. The bible doesn't tell us to confess our sins for salvation, it tells us to repent of them. What I was saying is the that the confession of sin in both the James and 1 John passage is not for salvation but sanctification. If we say that we haven't sinned, when we clearly have, we make God a liar. Because of unconfessed sin we can be sick and weak, expecially in a spiritual sense. But that is an extreme case of willful sin in rebellion to God, even for a Christian. Even for a believer who is growing by leaps and bounds, sin will evidence itself in their (our) lives. That there is sin in our lives doesn't mean that there is not growth. I don't know where you get this, because it's not from me. Our life in Christ is not about confessing our every sin every time it happens, that would be quite burdensome, even more burdensome then the Law was. You obviously are not understanding a word I'm saying because of your clear aversion to confession, you are so obverse to it that you read more into our conversation than is there. And for that reason, that because I'm wrong and your right, but because you cannot even hear what I'm actually saying, I am withdrawing from this conversation.
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
Yeah, but I've brought up a lot that you haven't even spoken of yet. I've clearly shown you 1 John and it's context. I even brought up 1 John ch. 3 where it states a believer doesn't sin. Why do you overlook all of that in favor of your teachings? Notice John said if we say we haven't sinned, as in past tense, we make God out to be a liar. Why is that a past tense, if the sinning part is on going? See you have all these problems, and yet you make it seem like I'm pedestrian in the things I'm speaking on. You haven't addressed my questions about confessing sins being so vital, yet it's hardly spoken about in the NT. The things you brought up don't even talk about it in terms of Christian living. (Other than confessing one to another) So I'm at a loss for words. I hope I'm not being rude in my response in any way, but when you don't address those questions and make it seem like I'm refusing to listen (ultimately saying you are withdrawing from the conversation because of it), it makes me sad.
I also cleared up in my last post about confessing sins in terms of being cleansed, not necessarily salvation. So I know what you're talking about. I've been living what you are talking about for years. That is what I was taught, it's what you were taught. It's wrong, and I've shown you the problems with it. I hope you do address those questions. If not, hey, it was good talking with you.
Last edited by Heavenese; 02-22-2013 at 06:10 PM..
I haven't covered it because you won't hear it anyway. If you think that you no longer sin after salvation, then you're perfect, and we are not there yet. You can go on believing that you no longer sin, but you know that you are wrong.You are so hooked on confessing every little thing we do that is sin, and I've never talked to that, in fact I've said the very opposite of that, and yet you always bring up that point. Of course we sin, John wasn't talking about living a life completely free of any sin after we're saved, he was talking about continued willful sin. I'm sad that you cannot see that, and it frustrates me that you keep saying things I'm not saying, and for that reason continued discussion on the point is futile for me, since you are so set on your current sinless perfection.
You can go back to gloating now, and enjoy your false sense of superiority in your understanding of a believers sin and sanctification.
No, you have it all wrong concerning what I'm saying. Perhaps it's because of the amount of text that we keep writing, having to respond to everything, that we miss the points we are talking on. So just answer me this one question. Why does 1 John ch. 1 presents itself in a way, as though it's talking to people who don't already believe? John states that he is declaring what he have seen concerning Jesus, to the people.
I'm having a hard time right now. Idk if this thread is already somewhere else, if so just tell me.
Anywho, I'm just going to go off the top of my head. I have a few questions
1. If you are a born again Christian, are you now considered sinless? If not, do you become sinless when you enter heaven? And if so, how was Satan and is entourage able to rebel in heaven if they were sinless beings.
The Christian is covered by Christ's blood. And because of Christ doing that exchange for us, God views the perfection given to us as ours. We at death are now righteous and can stand before God sinless.
Satan and his entourage was able to because they had a choice and they chose to rebel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyurban
2. Was Adam and Eve sinless before they ate the forbidden fruit? This one puzzles me because, if they were sinless and perfect at first, since they disobeyed God, wasn't they actually sinful from the beginning. You have to already be a sinner to disobey.
Yes, Adam and Eve [were] sinless before they ate the forbidden fruit. "
No, "they [were not] actually sinful from the beginning. You have to already be a sinner to disobey."
A & E chose to rebel just like Satan did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyurban
3. How in the world am I supposed to please God if I am forever a wicked person on this Earth? This correlates to question 1. We can't possibly do EVERYTHING perfectly. So aren't we all SOL.
You are unfortunately are putting the focus on "I" instead of what Jesus has done for you.
The message of the cross and the means of grace are being robbed from you in such a way that is denying you of the comfort of the true gospel message that is intended for the believer.
"WE" can't ... but "Jesus DID"
Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has madeperfectforever those who are being made holy.
Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men madeperfect,
We can not by our own reason or ability or choice believe in Jesus, make yourself sinless, become perfect. We have been "made" perfect while on this earth are "being made" holy. Our sinfulness will be battling us till we are called to heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyurban
Example: I am born again, now I am sinless. However, I commit a sin, now obviously I am not a born again christian. HOWEVER, if I am born again Christian and I still have sin, what's the point in trying to be righteous. This is starting to seem like a lose, lose game. Now you might say he forgives, but how do I know he has forgiven me when I am still a sinner and he says only the righteous will enter his kingdom. None of us are righteous. So will none of us enter.
I hope this makes sense. Ask me to clarify if needed.
Again you are focusing on "I" which will lead one to despair and defeatism. You are attempting to be the "perfecter".
That is one of Satan's tatics ... to get you to fix your eyes on "I" instead of Jesus:
Hebrews 12:2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
No, you have it all wrong concerning what I'm saying. Perhaps it's because of the amount of text that we keep writing, having to respond to everything, that we miss the points we are talking on. So just answer me this one question. Why does 1 John ch. 1 presents itself in a way, as though it's talking to people who don't already believe? John states that he is declaring what he have seen concerning Jesus, to the people.
I'm going to have to go in a few seconds, but let me point out exactly what I'm talking about, speaking on John talking to this group of believers as though they are not believers...
"What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete."
So why is John speaking in this manner, if these teachings were for those who were believers already?
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