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Thank you, but I cannot take credit for anything. It's just bits and pieces I picked up here and there reading some stuff way outside the boundaries of the typical fundamentalist claptrap.
You're painting an either/or about free will and it's not exactly that. Fundamentalists love to shout that it is man's free will that enables him to choose to accept or reject God. It's their way of getting God off the hook for having to condemn a person to hell for all eternity. Can you imagine something more nonsensical than God saying, "Well, gee I really wanted to save you. I even desired to save you like my Apostle Peter said, but My sense of justice has to overrule my love and so My hands are tied. I have to send you to hell for all eternity. Sorry." I mean if you can make sense out of something as senseless as that you are a better Christian that I am. Not to divert this conversation but this is the argument medieval theologians were confronted with so they invented this garbage about, Well, God is infinite and if God is infinite and sin is a crime against an infinite God then sin must be infinite and therefore the punishment for that sin of a necessity has to be infinite. Completely man-made doctrine made up by Augustine or some other nut out of that period. Nowhere in the Bible.
I pretty much totally agree with you that the infinite punishment doctrine is nowhere in the Bible. And I don't think it's a completely either/or situation with Free Will either.
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But back on point, no one has completely free will because then their will to send themselves to hell would supersede God's will to save them. Who's will is greater? Jesus said, "No man can come to me EXCEPT the Spirit draw him." If you don't come to God it's because the Spirit did not draw you. If the Spirit drew you you could not resist. If you did resist, your will would be stronger than the Holy Spirit's. So what's God going to do, throw up His hands when someone resists and say, "I couldn't get him. I failed. His will was stronger than Mine. Now I have to send him to hell."
And I totally agree that "no one comes to me except the Father (spirit) draw them."
But of course it couldn't be ALL the Father's will either, because then we have a similar problem. It's like God saying "well I know I told you in the Bible you'd have the ability to choose Life, but unfortunately it's me who chooses for you. And if I want to harden your heart and send you to Gehenna, then it's my choice, and you can't do anything about it."
So instead of saying "his will was stronger than mine," now it's "my will is stronger than yours, so forget reading the Bible and thinking that anything you do will ever matter. What will be, will be, and it's all up to me." That seems even more ridiculous to me. I don't think eternal punishment is the correct doctrine. But there has to be some responsibility on the part of Man, otherwise why even write the Bible, or send Christ, or any of that?
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This is the biggest pile of rubbish ever conceived and the ONLY reason it was designed was to keep greedy, power-hungry church leaders in power and use this argument as a club to frighten people. God is in complete control of our lives and He assumes total responsibility for our eternal destinies.
The only way this last part could make sense is if there was no punishment at all. No responsibility on man's part = no punishment at all, which is the only way this could be just. But the scriptures are full of evidence that man does have a responsibility. I think the key here is that hell is not eternal. That's the way it makes sense.
I also think that there is a law of Karma at work here. Those who work evil attract evil spirits (shadows) that will attach to them, and this brings curses along with it oftentimes, and it can steamroll very badly. In a sense, it's God hardening Pharaoh's heart. In another sense, it's a curse that Pharaoh brought on himself that God, through the appropriate forces, is sending to him.
Last edited by TwoWitnesses; 06-09-2013 at 07:43 AM..
Oh!, I beg to differ, satan is more EVIL than many even believe him to be. You said...” He is God's secret agent, basically the angel appointed by God to act as our adversary so that we are confronted with having to make a choice between good and evil”. That's teaching ISN'T true, did you forget satan lied to eve concerning eating from a certain tree?,(Gen.3:1-5 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which theLORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Yeshall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said untothe serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. Butof the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, Godhath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil).
Jehovah God wanted ONLY one thing from ALL his created beings, that was to OBEY him. Some have said he sent that Angel to test the first couple,But that's so untrue. Because just like the Angels ,the first couple were created perfect. Also NO ONE knows how long they lived in Eden before satan HIMSELF, decided to fool eve. Also why would Jehovah God allow ANY Angel to lie on him? Satan started this lie on his own. Jesus showed this when he spoke to those false ministers of his day ,(John 8:44 Yeare of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye willdo. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth ,because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it). Satan is so EVIL, that he MANY ministers teaching ONLY some truth, (2Cor.11:13-15).
he made it were many don't believe in God ,(2Cor.4:4 ,and Psa. 10:4).he can fool MANY using his tricks ,(Ephe.6:11), example, making them see “dead people”, when he knows it's ONLY him and his weak-butt crew, playing, let's pretend. Or like having people celebrated the “birthdays” of dead presidents. Knowing these people don't even realize, birthdays stop once you die. Satan takes the heat of him, by having many say, "it's gods fault". When it's really their own ,(Pro.19:3). the ONLY human God allowed satan to test was Job. And that was because satan THOUGHT!..., he could turn this righteous man who worshiped Jehovah against him, he didn't though ,(Job1:6 ,8-22, and Job 2:1-7). lastly what kind of LOVING God ,(John4:8), would Jehovah be if he TOLD satan to do these things to humans, than condemned satan to destruction ,(Jude1:6 and Rev.20:10).Satan is going down, and he's taking as man humans as he can withhim. peace
Sure Jesus is the judge of life and death in the heaven and the earth , because He has the power to bring life ....Where in the scripture which you took that Jesus judge no man is at the time before the cross of Christ and the power was not given , as Jesus had not fulfilled the New covenant ......... Then satan may be an accuser of the brethren , and the people of the creation of God , But he does not cohort with God in the dealing with man , As satan just claims he authority by his manipulation of sin which is put of people , as God is the blesser and has no mercy for the devil ........as in Revelations 12 : 7-10 , which Has happened contrary to the unbelief of many, as satan cannot go to heaven and confront God.....as this says ...........``and there was war in heaven Michael and His angels fought against the dragon , and the dragon fought and the angels prevailed not , neither was their place found any more in heaven ...and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the devil , and satan which deceived the whole world , he was caste out to the earth , and his angels were cast out with him ....Now has come salvation , and strength , and the kingdom of our God , and the power of His Christ.``............ See the devil is still cast down to the earth , and not out of the earth as the evil devil could never stand in the presence of God , or he would be burned up in Gods eternal essence
Your very answer demonstrates the horrendous flaw in much of this Christian Fundamentalist dogma. Why should I have to read a twenty-line paragraph just to begin to understand four words out of a scripture. Can't you let the words speak for themselves? Why go into this nonsense of, "Well, you have to take it context with Jeremiah 12:21-23 and Isaiah 51:2-7 which says yada yada yada, not forgetting that Exodus 15:1-4 and Haggai 4:2-3 alludes to Psalm 145 which says yada yada yada? You have to take it in context....context...context." That's all I hear from Fundy's. They can never just take the words at face value. They have to point you to a Moody PhD in theology just to interpret four lousy words.
To "context, context, context" I simply say, "Simplify, simplify."
I pretty much totally agree with you that the infinite punishment doctrine is nowhere in the Bible. And I don't think it's a completely either/or situation with Free Will either.
And I totally agree that "no one comes to me except the Father (spirit) draw them."
But of course it couldn't be ALL the Father's will either, because then we have a similar problem. It's like God saying "well I know I told you in the Bible you'd have the ability to choose Life, but unfortunately it's me who chooses for you. And if I want to harden your heart and send you to Gehenna, then it's my choice, and you can't do anything about it."
So instead of saying "his will was stronger than mine," now it's "my will is stronger than yours, so forget reading the Bible and thinking that anything you do will ever matter. What will be, will be, and it's all up to me." That seems even more ridiculous to me. I don't think eternal punishment is the correct doctrine. But there has to be some responsibility on the part of Man, otherwise why even write the Bible, or send Christ, or any of that?
The only way this last part could make sense is if there was no punishment at all. No responsibility on man's part = no punishment at all, which is the only way this could be just. But the scriptures are full of evidence that man does have a responsibility. I think the key here is that hell is not eternal. That's the way it makes sense.
I also think that there is a law of Karma at work here. Those who work evil attract evil spirits (shadows) that will attach to them, and this brings curses along with it oftentimes, and it can steamroll very badly. In a sense, it's God hardening Pharaoh's heart. In another sense, it's a curse that Pharaoh brought on himself that God, through the appropriate forces, is sending to him.
Yes, man does have a certain part to play in this. "A man plans his course but the Lord directs his steps".
Kind of a 30-70 thing to me. Man has the 30, God has the 70. It's not 50-50 no matter what anybody says. I have committed a lot of sin in my life, God forgive me. He has often, without wreaking serious repercussions on me. But there were a few times in my life where God intervened and walloped me good and I mean GOOD (and HARD) If I had free will to choose then why did God step in and stop me? And without going into detail I can only say that some of the ways he pulled my bacon out of the fire were miraculous and some of the ways He stepped in and stopped me from going too far were also miraculous, not explainable by natural laws. Hand in the air, "As God is my witness this is true."
He is God's secret agent, basically the angel appointed by God to act as our adversary so that we are confronted with having to make a choice between good and evil. In the giant courtroom in the sky, Satan is God's prosecuting attorney and Jesus is our defense attorney and we are the defendant. Satan brings the accusation (a criminal complaint) against us and Jesus steps in to defend us with the Father sitting in the judge's seat listening to the evidence. When Jesus pronounces He died to save us the gavel of God comes down in our favor. It's just a repeat of Perry Mason with Perry (Jesus) winning every case Hamilton Burger (satan) brings against us.
Satan (adversary) is Adversary to God, not to man, aka mankind. Satan is adversary to Messiah, not to man, aka mankind.
He is God's secret agent, basically the angel appointed by God to act as our adversary so that we are confronted with having to make a choice between good and evil. In the giant courtroom in the sky, Satan is God's prosecuting attorney and Jesus is our defense attorney and we are the defendant. Satan brings the accusation (a criminal complaint) against us and Jesus steps in to defend us with the Father sitting in the judge's seat listening to the evidence. When Jesus pronounces He died to save us the gavel of God comes down in our favor. It's just a repeat of Perry Mason with Perry (Jesus) winning every case Hamilton Burger (satan) brings against us.
I think its a bit a paradox, Satan was created just as he is, evil, he was created evil, so while he had no other choice than to be evil, he will still be accountable for being evil.
Yes, man does have a certain part to play in this. "A man plans his course but the Lord directs his steps".
Kind of a 30-70 thing to me. Man has the 30, God has the 70. It's not 50-50 no matter what anybody says. I have committed a lot of sin in my life, God forgive me. He has often, without wreaking serious repercussions on me. But there were a few times in my life where God intervened and walloped me good and I mean GOOD (and HARD) If I had free will to choose then why did God step in and stop me? And without going into detail I can only say that some of the ways he pulled my bacon out of the fire were miraculous and some of the ways He stepped in and stopped me from going too far were also miraculous, not explainable by natural laws. Hand in the air, "As God is my witness this is true."
I've had these exact same experiences!
And as for your Post #54, that's just awesome. I was saying this same thing on this forum a couple years ago. I started a post called "What disturbs me..." where I made similar points.
I think its a bit a paradox, Satan was created just as he is, evil, he was created evil, so while he had no other choice than to be evil, he will still be accountable for being evil.
Satan likes to run up the credit card, and pay for it later...while Jesus likes to purchase things in blood (cash).
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