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When you tell someone they must do something to be saved, then faith becomes a work. An example is the lie being preached in countless churches that you must be water baptized to be saved, which makes a ritual more valuable than the blood of Jesus. When you tell someone the truth about Jesus and how they are saved by grace then people will want to get baptized, not feel obligated to do it. This is my whole argument, turning faith into a work, which is not the gospel.
You cannot compare water baptism to what I am saying. They are completely different things. One is completely "ritualistic" and the other things Jesus said to do (like fasting and prayer) have actual transformative value. But I don't think you'll ever get it..simply because you are "willfully ignorant." You can't make an actual case...you can only just try to twist Jesus' words around. So much for truth I guess.
But I think while I was going off to sleep I figured out how to resolve this. I am going to start a new thread for it however.
Heresy! Jesus never once said or implied this. This kind of belief devalues Jesus, His blood and His finished work on the cross. Anyone who believes this is insulting the Spirit of Grace (the Holy Spirit) and saying that the sacrifice God provided was insufficient in removing all our sins and making us righteous forever. If man offers a sacrifice to God it can never be perfect. If God offers the sacrifice, it is perfect forever. As I've said, right believe produces right living. Under the new covenant of grace obedience is a FRUIT not the root.
Nothing devalues Jesus. Don't ever say that...because you are insulting Jesus.
How about addressing my post #58?
It seems you can't address my points, so you just rattle off something like this again.
Right belief does not produce right living automatically...because the REALITY is...that even when people say they believe and they accept Christ...in many cases it still takes a long time (and in some cases many years) for them to SURRENDER to his will. Once you surrender to Christ and God's will, then yes, what you are saying can occur. But the reality is (and this is provable)...you can know in your heart it is true, and you can BELIEVE, but that is NOT the same as the type of surrender that leads to true repentance and transcendence.
And please don't exclude this verse "to he who overcomes, I will give a crown of life"
I also don't think you addressed what I said about PRAYER and FASTING. It seems you sidestepped it completely...or maybe your example regarding BAPTISM was supposed to take care of that? It didn't. You can not AT ALL compare prayer and fasting to baptism.
Do you believe that someone can accept Christ, and say they believe, and never pray at all and still be saved by the blood of Jesus? They can't. The Lord will say "I have never known you." Prayer is spiritual works..and we need to have a relationship with Christ...not just claim to believe.
Last edited by TwoWitnesses; 06-20-2013 at 08:46 AM..
A free ticket to easy street? ... Did Jesus pay for your sins or not? Was that a free ticket? NO! Free implies it was given and nothing had to be done in return for it. But God did not just give us salvation without something happening. It costs Him His Son.
The "Free ticket" on easy street that he mentioned happens to be the type of Christianity that a lot of the Satanic run Fundamentalist groups teach. I guess you didn't know about those did you. Maybe I'll start another thread on that one so you can learn about it.
I care more about truth than being right...but in my honest opinion you have not been able to successfully prove your point using scripture. I know it's hard to re-examine what's been programmed into you...but I promise, if you have the courage, the Lord will reward you.
It didn't cost God his son by the way...because Jesus ascended to the throne of power. God will always have his Son. So therefore is in fact a "free ticket" ...and your point here is invalid. And we can see that Jesus never gave the impression we'd get a free ride to heaven at all. You are insulting Jesus by twisting his words around. That's the TV Cash Machine version of Christianity...made for mass consumption.
Listen, I already know we can spend 1000 years talking about this, and that you will ignore all the valid points I make, and we won't ever get anywhere. You have failed to convince me of your perspective, and that's okay. It's just cause it isn't true. I know you will come back and try again, but there's a chance that I will not further address the posts, because I feel like I'd have better luck talking to a salmon.
I can't believe how you have come to believe this way. What did Jesus die for if not for our sins? (John 3:16) How can you distance yourself so far from the grace of our loving God? Why are you trusting in your own self efforts to save you? Jesus is not a teacher, HE IS OUR SAVIOR! By His blood and His blood alone are we saved! God is righteous in making the sinner righteous. That is the work of God! NOT YOU! The finished work of Christ is a perfect work in removing our sins and saving us.
I will pray for you dude...because it seems they've gotten to you to the point, that you can't see what's in scripture right in front of you.
Jesus wasn't a teacher? He's our savior, you say, and not a teacher, yet you say he didn't use the word salvation in the Gospel. Man. this is some twisted stuff..all the desperate things they are having you do mentally to maintain this "illusion." Anyway, I've proved my point...and I am off to greener pastures now.
Post #72 gets right to the heart of it. I will probably start a new thread with that soon because I think that's the reason there is confusion on the subject.
Can you address the points I made in that post about SURRENDER and about PRAYER and FASTING?
I really doubt it.
I mean can you address it without accusing someone of "insulting Jesus" or his blood. IF you are just going to shout heresy and throw out dogma without scripture to actually back it up, I'm not interested in reading it.
Last edited by TwoWitnesses; 06-20-2013 at 09:12 AM..
You do not understand any bit of context of the scripture. I keep trying to help you understand it all but you insist on holding onto your own religious and prideful values. Jesus said He came to serve us, not for us to serve Him. Who do you think He was talking about when He said He came to serve? Sir I have not called Jesus a heretic, that is your judgment upon me. You have completely ripped the gospel out of context and created your own God and religion. All of it is heresy and a lie. How can you say Jesus never said He came to die on the cross for our sins? Jesus Himself said He came to do the will of His Father and I already showed you where that is in scripture.
You said this to Peacekeeper, but do you not realize that you are the one holding on to your own
"religious and prideful values" and that the organized religion that teaches what you are talking about it very RELIGIOUS...as religious as it gets. All these things you keep repeating are taught by ORGANIZED RELIGION, which has been very corrupt for a very long time.
I can't believe how you have come to believe this way. What did Jesus die for if not for our sins? (John 3:16) How can you distance yourself so far from the grace of our loving God? Why are you trusting in your own self efforts to save you? Jesus is not a teacher, HE IS OUR SAVIOR! By His blood and His blood alone are we saved! God is righteous in making the sinner righteous. That is the work of God! NOT YOU! The finished work of Christ is a perfect work in removing our sins and saving us.
I already explained this. He died for our sins, but that does not mean we become automatically perfect.
"Many are called...but few are chosen."
Ok...but let's just say that he paid the price for sins..for a moment.
ARE YOU SAYING PRAYER IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION? Do you really think that if someone does not at least pray to the Lord, in earnest, that they are still going to be saved? (I am going to start a new thread on this now actually)...and that Jesus won't say to them "I have never known you" if they never do pray to him?
I believe that prayer is one of the most important types of spiritual works, and that is it necessary for Salvation.
If you do agree with this, then there is no sense in having this argument...because everything else will have been resolved also.
You cannot compare water baptism to what I am saying. They are completely different things. One is completely "ritualistic" and the other things Jesus said to do (like fasting and prayer) have actual transformative value. But I don't think you'll ever get it..simply because you are "willfully ignorant." You can't make an actual case...you can only just try to twist Jesus' words around. So much for truth I guess.
But I think while I was going off to sleep I figured out how to resolve this. I am going to start a new thread for it however.
There is nothing to resolve. You are denying the grace of God. The grace of God to you is as valuable as a penny to a rich man. God's grace cannot be brought down to a human level. But because God's grace is bigger than we will ever be we have every reason to rejoice in the love and mercy He has bestowed on us.What part of right believing produces right living don't you understand? Why do you believe there is still good in humanity when Jesus said there is not. You're trusting your own efforts to save you. You think the good things you do have value in the eyes of God and there is none. God is pleased with the finished work of His Son and only the good that manifests from resting in Jesus' finished work is holiness.
I already explained this. He died for our sins, but that does not mean we become automatically perfect.
"Many are called...but few are chosen."
Ok...but let's just say that he paid the price for sins..for a moment.
ARE YOU SAYING PRAYER IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION? Do you really think that if someone does not at least pray to the Lord, in earnest, that they are still going to be saved? (I am going to start a new thread on this now actually)...and that Jesus won't say to them "I have never known you" if they never do pray to him?
I believe that prayer is one of the most important types of spiritual works, and that is it necessary for Salvation.
If you do agree with this, then there is no sense in having this argument...because everything else will have been resolved also.
You have turned faith into a work. You believe that bringing works to God WITH Jesus' blood will save you. You cannot do that. God will not accept it. Anything that devalues the blood of Jesus is an insult to God. You are deliberately saying that the blood of Jesus is a common thing and not enough to save us. God MADE you righteous. And as I have said, but you continue to not read, RIGHT BELIEVING PRODUCES RIGHT LIVING. Say a person gets saved 5 minutes before they die. Wow at all the works they have to give to God right? But what about the guy who got saved at age 15, do you think He is more valuable to God with his life of works? Is he more saved than the guy who got saved just before he died? Impossible!
There is nothing to resolve. You are denying the grace of God. The grace of God to you is as valuable as a penny to a rich man. God's grace cannot be brought down to a human level. But because God's grace is bigger than we will ever be we have every reason to rejoice in the love and mercy He has bestowed on us.What part of right believing produces right living don't you understand? Why do you believe there is still good in humanity when Jesus said there is not. You're trusting your own efforts to save you. You think the good things you do have value in the eyes of God and there is none. God is pleased with the finished work of His Son and only the good that manifests from resting in Jesus' finished work is holiness.
The work of Christ is finished when it is finished IN us, aisi. The "good things we do" are Christ working through us to finish the work that was begun.
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