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My, my, but someone has an awefully high horse to climb up on! As an educated (MS) parent of "above average children" (apologies for the Prairie Home Companion reference - but their grades and test scores back the statement up), I find your attitude entirely snobbish and insulting.
So my attitude is "entirely snobbish and insulting", but your attitude about having an MS and "above average children" is not? And I would expect someone with a Master's degree to know the difference between "awfully" and "awefully"...
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Originally Posted by roneb
All of us have enjoyed the series. And my family doesn't frequent fast food joints! People can form their own judgements on what is good or bad.
Then let your kids make all their decisions on what to eat. Take them out for fast food more. Don't let some stupid ol' nutritionist egghead tell them what's good or bad, let them use their own judgment.
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Originally Posted by roneb
If left to the "expert critics" of the time, we wouldn't have much of what is considered genre defining classic rock today. In fact, we wouldn't have some of our classical music or art either!
We would still have classical music and art. As for classic rock, all that is is pop music of its time. It's crap. The Beatles were the N*Sync of their time. Most classic rock really sucks and is no longer popular.
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Originally Posted by roneb
The fact is the series is entirely enjoyable and better written than many of the books available to kids today. Are they on a par with Tolkien or CS Lewis? I'd say no. But they certainly aren't "crap" either.
If they are not on par with Tolkien or CS Lewis, both of which are available to kids today along with hundreds of other classics of the same literary caliber, then you're wrong in saying that Harry Potter is "better written than many of the books available to kids today." It is not well written. That's just the fact.
You said you and your family enjoyed the books. Great, good for you. I'm not against anyone ENJOYING the books. That's fine. I enjoy many things that are not top quality things. I love certain fast food and low brow food, I love a lot of pop music and other pop culture items. I have no problem with others doing the same. I don't mind if parents treat their kids to some McDonald's, or a Britney Spears CD, or a Harry Potter book.
What I have a problem with is anyone trying to tell me or anyone else that Harry Potter is "well written" or somehow a quality piece of literature, because it's not. It's junk. Like a lot of junk, it is very popular and a big seller and is "enjoyable". But it's junk. Like junk food. Like junk music. Junky, trashy junk. Enjoy it all you want, but it's junk. Poorly written junk.
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Originally Posted by roneb
And just to make sure I'm on topic: The Harry Potter series focuses on good overcoming evil and is wholly positive in that regard. It is a theme quite similar to Lord of the Rings and Narnia - both written by devotedly Christian men. The Christian theme is the Narnia series is quite obvious even for a child to pick out. Arguments painting any of these books as evil or "un-Christian" are utterly ridiculous
Either you're massively ignorant or you're lying. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you're just ignorant. There is a huge difference between Harry Potter and both CS Lewis and Tolkien from a Christian perspective. To say that there is nothing "un-Christian" about Harry Potter is absolutely ignorant. In your unbridled zeal to appear "open-minded" you are demonstrating how closed-minded you are (and so many other parents do the same).
The fact remains that the magic in Harry Potter is representative of real-world witchcraft. Unlike Narnia and Middle Earth, which are fictional places where non-humans are the beings that practice magic (and there are other differences I won't get into), Harry Potter is set in the real world and the practitioners of magic are those with the enlightenment of occult knowledge (taught at Hogwarts), and those humans who do not know or practice magic are regarded derogatorily as "muggles". That is a huge difference. That's something a Christian parent needs to know about and address with his or her child who reads Hurry Potter.
I don't think Hairy Potter crap needs to be boycotted or that it is going to infect young minds absolutely. However, the facts remain that:
- the books have real-world witchcraft themes
- the books are poorly written and not good literature
- the books are highly controversial and because of that are wildly popular
- the books are for children, yet some ignorant adults who would not read other childrens' books (not even the classics) will pick up this garbage, read it, and in their tiny minds will convince themselves they have read great literature and will go on to crow about how "well written" it is, despite their own ignorance; the reality is they are all just victims of pop culture and media manipulation, much like people who see a commercial for a Chicken McNuggets and have to run out to McD's for a box of them, except people who fall prey to advertising are more likely to acknowledge as much while adult Harry Potter fans are so ignorant they have no clue and honestly believe that what they read was "good" as opposed to just popular.
In the end, Hurry Pitter is just poorly written garbage that got the right media attention to make it wildly popular. It is the Perez Hilton of children's books.
If it offends your literary palate, then don't read the books.
Everyone has a right to decide for themselves whether they like certain movies or books. And some Christians are not as easily offended as you are over a book.
Not everyone decided they liked Harry Potter simply because of the controversy. Some people just liked the stories. Why does that simple fact upset you so much? Some people simply like Harry Potter series and a lot of other books that you probably deem as "not good literature". Get over it.
It's called fiction. And you may feel the Bible is Truth, others feel that is also fiction. To each his own.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
I don't think Hairy Potter crap needs to be boycotted or that it is going to infect young minds absolutely. However, the facts remain that:
- the books have real-world witchcraft themes
- the books are poorly written and not good literature
- the books are highly controversial and because of that are wildly popular
- the books are for children, yet some ignorant adults who would not read other childrens' books (not even the classics) will pick up this garbage, read it, and in their tiny minds will convince themselves they have read great literature .....
I would expect nothing more than an ad hom attack from someone with such an untenable position as yours.
My "untenable position" is simply asking a question that you have yet to answer:
Why is it so bad that people's imaginations and sense of fun were engaged by a series of books?
Why are you so hostile and angry about children's books? I'm not their biggest fan (haven't even read all of them), but I know several very intelligent, educated, and sophisticated people who will curl up for an entire evening to immerse themselves in that world.
Of all the chaos and tragedies in the world, I just don't understand your hostility and vitriol toward Mr. Potter. You sound like one of those high school kids who hate the popular band because its popular and isn't as complex or dark as your favorite band that no one listens to.
It's all just banal to me. But, whatever makes you feel good.
My "untenable position" is simply asking a question that you have yet to answer:
Why is it so bad that people's imaginations and sense of fun were engaged by a series of books?
Why are you so hostile and angry about children's books? I'm not their biggest fan (haven't even read all of them), but I know several very intelligent, educated, and sophisticated people who will curl up for an entire evening to immerse themselves in that world.
Of all the chaos and tragedies in the world, I just don't understand your hostility and vitriol toward Mr. Potter. You sound like one of those high school kids who hate the popular band because its popular and isn't as complex or dark as your favorite band that no one listens to.
It's all just banal to me. But, whatever makes you feel good.
I agree with Bluefly. I have to add calling people ignorant because they disagree with your opinion is getting a little too close to an extremist POV.
Do we need to put out an alert for the next screening of Wonderful Wizard of Oz?
If it offends your literary palate, then don't read the books.
Everyone has a right to decide for themselves whether they like certain movies or books. And some Christians are not as easily offended as you are over a book.
It offends my literary palate so I don't read the books. Why waste brain cells on that junk when I can read classics by Steinbeck, Carroll, Twain, Lewis, et al.???
And if you're going to criticize me, at least get it right; I'm NOT offended by the books from a Christian perspective, although in your presumptuous ignorance you accuse me of such. I'm not even offended by these books from an entertainment perspective, because I've already said that they're obviously good entertainment since they're popular.
I just take issue with people trying to convince anyone that these are "well written" or otherwise literarily good books, because they're not. I stated that opinion and got a rude response and reasserted my opinion and the rude responses (like yours) have not stopped coming.
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Originally Posted by _redbird_
Not everyone decided they liked Harry Potter simply because of the controversy. Some people just liked the stories. Why does that simple fact upset you so much? Some people simply like Harry Potter series and a lot of other books that you probably deem as "not good literature". Get over it.
I don't see how people, particularly adults, would latch onto a mediocre series of children's books except directly because of its pop-political controversy. I'm unaware of any other mediocre children's books that have gained such popularity and it's because there has been no other book with the exposure or controversy that Harry Potter has had. People read the book because of what they heard and, in an effort to defend it against the over-zealous charges, by fundamentalist Christian groups, of a danger of teaching witchcraft, they proclaimed the books to be "good". They're not "good". They may be entertaining, they may be not "dangerous" as those groups claimed, but they are NOT "good" or "well written".
And then the popularity is confused with literary prowess, because it is typical in our society to equate popularity with success and quality, despite the fact that it is often not the case.
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Originally Posted by _redbird_
It's called fiction. And you may feel the Bible is Truth, others feel that is also fiction. To each his own.
When did I ever say it's not fiction? And what does the Bible have to do with this? Who are you talking to? Me? Because you sure aren't talking about anything I've been talking about.
This is a bit off-topic, but I'll be 38 soon, & I happen to find children's books to be quite endearing. In fact, I just got through reading one I never read as a child: The Wind in the Willows.
My "untenable position" is simply asking a question that you have yet to answer:
Why is it so bad that people's imaginations and sense of fun were engaged by a series of books?
If you read any of my posts you'd have your answer several times over by now. One more time:
It's NOT bad that people's imaginations and sense of fun are engaged by this series of books or any others. I never said it was. However, someone's imagination and sense of fun can be engaged while also their literary senses honed by reading classics that are as entertaining as well as well written.
In any case, it's fine if someone wants some mindless entertainment. I enjoy plenty of TV shows, music, movies, and other forms of entertainment that are not high art forms. That's just fine. Everyone can and should do the same, including with Harry Potter.
But I would draw the line at making the ignorant mistake of claiming that any such entertainment is of any decent quality. Nor will I sit quiet when people try to tell me that I'm wrong about Harry Potter's literary inferiority to classic literature, particularly when their reasoning is that it's popular or enjoyable and therefore must be great literature. And particularly when they in the same breath try to tell me that classic literature can not be as enjoyable.
I love listening to the Red Hot Chili Peppers, but I wouldn't put them on the same level as Vivaldi or Bizet. I even think they're kind of crappy sometimes but I still enjoy it. I don't understand why so many on here who enjoy Harry Potter must insist that it's quality literature. It's not. It's entertaining, that's all. So is Britney Spears. So is eating Chicken McNuggets. So is watching "Law & Order". But none of those things are especially "good", despite being immensely popular and entertaining.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
Why are you so hostile and angry about children's books? I'm not their biggest fan (haven't even read all of them), but I know several very intelligent, educated, and sophisticated people who will curl up for an entire evening to immerse themselves in that world.
I'm am not "hostile and angry about children's books"; that's just your mischaracterization of me, in your attempt to slander me. Those intelligent, educated, and sophisticated people who curl up with Harry Potter do so as a guilty pleasure, fully aware that it is literarily mediocre at best. Or, if they're not aware of its literary inferiority, I would have to question whether they are indeed intelligent, or educated, or sophisticated at all.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
Of all the chaos and tragedies in the world, I just don't understand your hostility and vitriol toward Mr. Potter. You sound like one of those high school kids who hate the popular band because its popular and isn't as complex or dark as your favorite band that no one listens to.
It's all just banal to me. But, whatever makes you feel good.
Obviously you haven't been reading my posts but instead are responding to what you presumed I've been saying. Don't be so ignorant.
Christians (or those who claim to be Christians) give far too much press coverage and attention to Rowling's stupid books. Her books are mediocre children's books, but millions of adults have read them now and are "fans". Why? Because of the stink made about them. Adults took interest in Hairy Potter because of political and pop-news-culture reasons. They want to be part of the news story. They want to establish that they are anti-censorship, etc. If not for the big fuss, Rowling's books would have taken their less-than-stellar reviews from the NY Times and other critics and would have faded into the relative obscurity of children's books.
I do not agree with your analysis, which seems far too US-centered. In Europe, the HP books didn't create any mainstream "controversy". The US fundies' concerns are hardly ever taken seriously, when not outright laughed at. Nevertheless, the books were immensely popular in Europe as well. Nobody here would say they read the book "to establish that they are anti-censorship". They probably wouldn't even understand what you're talking about.
EDIT: and where did you get the idea that reviews of the HP books were mostly negative? This is how the books were originally received.
If you read any of my posts you'd have your answer several times over by now. One more time:
It's NOT bad that people's imaginations and sense of fun are engaged by this series of books or any others. I never said it was. However, someone's imagination and sense of fun can be engaged while also their literary senses honed by reading classics that are as entertaining as well as well written.
In any case, it's fine if someone wants some mindless entertainment. I enjoy plenty of TV shows, music, movies, and other forms of entertainment that are not high art forms. That's just fine. Everyone can and should do the same, including with Harry Potter.
But I would draw the line at making the ignorant mistake of claiming that any such entertainment is of any decent quality. Nor will I sit quiet when people try to tell me that I'm wrong about Harry Potter's literary inferiority to classic literature, particularly when their reasoning is that it's popular or enjoyable and therefore must be great literature. And particularly when they in the same breath try to tell me that classic literature can not be as enjoyable.
I love listening to the Red Hot Chili Peppers, but I wouldn't put them on the same level as Vivaldi or Bizet. I even think they're kind of crappy sometimes but I still enjoy it. I don't understand why so many on here who enjoy Harry Potter must insist that it's quality literature. It's not. It's entertaining, that's all. So is Britney Spears. So is eating Chicken McNuggets. So is watching "Law & Order". But none of those things are especially "good", despite being immensely popular and entertaining.
I'm am not "hostile and angry about children's books"; that's just your mischaracterization of me, in your attempt to slander me. Those intelligent, educated, and sophisticated people who curl up with Harry Potter do so as a guilty pleasure, fully aware that it is literarily mediocre at best. Or, if they're not aware of its literary inferiority, I would have to question whether they are indeed intelligent, or educated, or sophisticated at all.
Obviously you haven't been reading my posts but instead are responding to what you presumed I've been saying. Don't be so ignorant.
Now you call me ignorant. Nice counter to your "ad hominem" charge made earlier.
I read your posts. They are very hostile, self-righteous, and angry. The people I know who read this series do not do so out of a guilty pleasure, but simply out of pleasure.
I offered a book, "Finding God in Harry Potter" for you to read to answer your concerns. It makes a strong argument that the Harry Potter series deserves consideration as significant works of literature, revealing depths of correlation in names and subject matter to historical context that clearly went right over your head.
You, in your infinite wisdom, have made up your mind and seek no further education on this matter.
So be it. I hope you find peace in your heart one day. I have no desire for your anger and hostility to infect my life any further.
How are the classics listed not "enjoyable"??? I, and many others, enjoyed reading them, as children.
I didn't say they wouldn't be enjoyable for some kids.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
The point is to give them something of quality that they will enjoy. Many children will not enjoy all the books I listed; each book is different, contains different themes and settings and characters, and will appeal to different children. But they are classics which will provide not only enjoyment for the child but also an instruction, whether they realize it or not, in great literature.
And, of course, because YOU think the Harry Potter books should not be considered as literature, much less "great literature", you cannot see the same lessons in them that you see in the Narnia series, right? And, as I've said, the HP series has made readers of many children who might otherwise not have bothered.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
It's like food, again. Many kids "enjoy" McDonald's, candy, and other junk food while turning their noses up to broccoli, salads, lean meat, and other nutritional food. So should a parent give his child only potato chips and chocolate bars for their meals, so that the child is not "turned off" to eating altogether? Indeed, many irresponsible parents DO feed their children McDonald's and other JUNK when the child refuses to eat real, good food. But that doesn't make it right. It's wrong. It's indulging the child to eat crap and not helping the child but hurting the child. Furthermore, giving a child a diet of chicken mcnuggets and shakes will not get them to ever enjoy REAL food; likewise, indulging a child with crappy Harry Potter will not lead them to enjoy classic literature and to become intelligent readers and writers, but will rather get them used to subpar garbage literature.
So, if you want to feed kids the literary equivalent of a diet of McDonald's and chocolate bars, that's fine, but don't mistake that for any kind of quality reading which will benefit a child. All that does is indulge a child's impulse, and it doesn't enhance the child's mind at all.
Please point out for me where I said that kids should ONLY read the Harry Potter books? What I said is that the story is engaging enough to get them interested in reading. Kinda like a little girl I knew who began life on a feeding tube because of physical problems she was born with. When the doctor decided it was time to take her off the tube and get her eating real food, it took feeding her things like McDonald's french fries and milk shakes to get her interested in eating.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
What hogwash. That's like saying McDonald's has made eating vegetables enjoyable for a lot of children who otherwise wouldn't eat vegetables because they put onions and pickles on their crappy burgers. Or like saying that Britney Spears has made music enjoyable for a lot of kids who would otherwise never listen to music, so Britney Spears must be better than Beethoven or Prokofiev. Ridiculous.
Once again, you put words in my mouth. I never said the HP books were 'better' than any other book. I never said children shouldn't be exposed to other writers. What I'm trying to get you to understand is that there are children who simply wouldn't find the same enjoyment in other books. That you would force them to read 'the classics' first, just tells me that you're not so much interesting in getting children to read as you are in controlling what they read.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
How do you know they're "not the kind of stories [you were] interested in reading" if you never read any of them???
It's called having siblings who DID read those books and gave what you might call mini-reviews.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
If you are interested in reading Hurry Potter because it's about magic and witches and fantasy, then the Narnia series would fit that description as well. I think that the reason you or others are interested in reading Hurry Potter is because they are identified in pop culture as the hot item. It's no different than being interested in Cable Larry's "Git 'R Done" movies or Paris Hilton's latest TV show or whatever else the media tells you is "good" (so they can sell it to you). As I said earlier, yes, it's popular, yes, a lot of people want to read it, yes, a lot of kids will want to read it because it's popular and "in" and because ignorant adults are pushing it on them at this point; however, it is literary junk with the intention of making money and nothing more. It's the Hostess cupcakes of children's literature - they love it and eat it up and can't get enough of it but it's harming them and providing no nutrition whatsoever.
I have read the Narnia series and enjoyed it very much. You'd be wrong about the 'pop culture' angle though. I can't stand Paris Hilton, have never heard of 'Cable Larry' and pay no attention whatsoever to the media reviews of anything. If I decide I like something, it's because I like it. Not because someone told me they liked it. Could you explain how you think the HP books are 'harming' children? Because I just don't see encouraging the use of imagination as harmful.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
No, you please curb your bravado in recommending to children and their parents that the kids read garbage simply because it's popular and you, in your most unprofessional opinion, think it's good for them to read that tripe merely because you THINK they will find it "enjoyable" and will not find any classics "enjoyable". That's one of the most ignorant things I've heard in a long time.
I have not ever recommended to children and/or their parents that they read the HP series. What I recommended - to parents who had already expressed an interest in buying the books for their children - was that they use caution in choosing the ages at which their children read them. Because I can see a lot in the books that is simply not appropriate for a younger child to read.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
What's total nonsense is some pop culture victim like you making recommendations to parents and kids to read garbage because you, with your lack of education and exposure to classics, bigotedly dismiss the classics out of hand (without having read them yourself). What other brilliant suggestions do you have for parents? "Oh, he won't eat peas? Try giving McDonald's Fries! Your little girl doesn't like ballet? Oh, just show her a few Britney Spears videos, then she'll love dance! Your son doesn't want to go play baseball with his friends? Just buy him a PS3 with MLB '09, it's better than playing the real game, he can't get hurt playing a video game!"
You are being either deliberately offensive or deliberately obtuse.
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And I would expect someone with a Master's degree to know the difference between "awfully" and "awefully"... 
People can form their own judgements on what is good or bad.
I, and many others, enjoyed reading them, as children.
