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Old 10-08-2013, 02:06 PM
 
21,911 posts, read 16,721,895 times
Reputation: 8732

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Have you been reading Mike555's posts about all you have to do is believe and you are saved regardless of whether 6you follow it up with following Christ or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
What a single poster on CD writes is a long way from "Doctrine".
Let's not make this about me. I assume that the OP,s statement, which he has not clarified the intent of his meaning, ''This doctrine one need not DO Gods will is deceiving multitudes into deception.'', concerns the issue of salvation by grace through faith, versus salvation by works which is legalism and which the apostle Paul called a different gospel which is contrary to apostolic teaching in Galatians 1.

As I stated in post #2 of this thread,
God's will for the unbeliever is to believe on Christ so that he may have eternal life (Acts 16:31). If the unbeliever disobeys that command he will spend eternity future in the lake of fire.

God's will for the believer is to grow to spiritual maturity. That necessitates being obedient to God's will to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18). If the believer fails to obey that command he will incur divine discipline in time and miss out on eternal rewards, but he will still be eternally saved.
Obeying God's commands, except for obeying the command to believe on Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) for the forgiveness of sins, is impossible for the unbeliever and therefore not a condition for eternal salvation. Obeying God's commands belongs to the believer's spiritual life.

Grace absolutely forbids works on our part in order to receive that which is a free gift of God - eternal life.
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Obedience to God's commands requires ongoing effort on our part. The believer's spiritual life and spiritual growth to maturity requires ongoing effort on our part - it's work. But receiving the free gift of eternal life does not require works on our part.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, ''If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.' . . . 14] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.''
The living water of which Jesus spoke was the Holy Spirit who gives eternal life to whoever simply believes on Christ. To those who simply ask for it. Jesus was speaking in anticipation of the day of Pentecost at which time the Holy Spirit would be given (John 7:37-39), in the sense of the indwelling, filling, and Spirit baptism (baptism of the Holy Spirit) ministries of the Holy Spirit. However, the Holy Spirit has always regenerated in every period of human history those who have believed the promise of the Messiah who was to come.


The apostle Paul agrees with Jesus of course that eternal salvation is a free gift;
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.
And the apostle John wrote;
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, ''Come.'' And let the one who hears say, ''Come.'' And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Jesus, Paul, and John all say that eternal life is a free gift. And you do not work for a free gift. You do not earn the free gift of eternal life by keeping the commands of God. You advance spiritually by keeping the commands of God.

The believer should absolutely obey God. But making obedience to all of the NT commands for the believer who has already been eternally saved a requirement for eternal life is legalism. A person is eternally saved by grace, though faith in Christ Jesus just as Ephesians 2:8-9 says.

The believer in Christ should be motivated to have a productive spiritual life (and this is what James is talking about), but contrary to what many think, being eternally saved does not automatically result in works which are acceptable to God. The believer who constantly remains out of fellowship will not produce works that will be found to be 'gold, silver, and precious stones' at the judgment seat of Christ, but will only have human good which will be burned up, though he himself is saved (1 Corinthians 3:12-15). The believer remains out of fellowship if he never acknowledges to God the sins he commits as a believer according to the principle of 1 John 1:9.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-08-2013 at 02:49 PM..
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Old 10-08-2013, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,576,990 times
Reputation: 8913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Let's not make this about me. I assume that the OP,s statement, which he has not clarified the intent of his meaning, ''This doctrine one need not DO Gods will is deceiving multitudes into deception.'', concerns the issue of salvation by grace through faith, versus salvation by works which is legalism and which the apostle Paul called a different gospel which is contrary to apostolic teaching in Galatians 1.

As I stated in post #2 of this thread,
God's will for the unbeliever is to believe on Christ so that he may have eternal life (Acts 16:31). If the unbeliever disobeys that command he will spend eternity future in the lake of fire.

God's will for the believer is to grow to spiritual maturity. That necessitates being obedient to God's will to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18). If the believer fails to obey that command he will incur divine discipline in time and miss out on eternal rewards, but he will still be eternally saved.
Obeying God's commands, except for obeying the command to believe on Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) for the forgiveness of sins, is impossible for the unbeliever and therefore not a condition for eternal salvation. Obeying God's commands belongs to the believer's spiritual life.

Grace absolutely forbids works on our part in order to receive that which is a free gift of God - eternal life.
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no loner grace.
Qbedience to God's commands requires ongoing effort on our part. The believer's spiritual life and spiritual growth to maturity requires ongoing effort on our part - it's work. But receiving the free gift of eternal life does not require works on our part.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, ''If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.' . . . 14] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.''
The living water of which Jesus spoke was the Holy Spirit who gives eternal life to whoever simply believes on Christ. To those who simply ask for it. Jesus was speaking in anticipation of the day of Pentecost at which time the Holy Spirit would be given (John 7:37-39), in the sense of the indwelling, filling, and Spirit baptism (baptism of the Holy Spirit) ministries of the Holy Spirit. However, the Holy Spirit has always regenerated in every period of human history those who have believed the promise of the Messiah who was to come.


The apostle Paul agrees with Jesus of course that eternal salvation is a free gift;
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.
And the apostle John wrote;
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, ''Come.'' And let the one who hears say, ''Come.'' And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Jesus, Paul, and John all say that eternal life is a free gift. And you do not work for a free gift. You do not earn the free gift of eternal life by keeping the commands of God. You advance spiritually by keeping the commands of God.

The believer should absolutely obey God. But making obedience to all of the NT commands for the believer who has already been eternally saved a requirement for eternal life is legalism. A person is eternally saved by grace, though faith in Christ Jesus just as Ephesians 2:8-9 says.

The believer in Christ should be motivated to have a productive spiritual life (and this is what James is talking about), but contrary to what many think, being eternally saved does not automatically result in works which are acceptable to God. The believer who constantly remains out of fellowship will not produce works that will be found to be 'gold, silver, and precious stones' at the judgment seat of Christ, but will only have human good which will be burned up, though he himself is saved (1 Corinthians 3:12-15). The believer remains out of fellowship if he never acknowledges to God the sins he commits as a believer according to the principle of 1 John 1:9.
What the bible says IS DOCTRINE. Therefore I do agree with what Mile is saying.
I believe that we are saved by Faith alone in Christ alone and by nothing else whatsoever.

If works had anything at all to do with our being saved we would all be lost because in ourselves we are TOTALLY CORRUPT and sin touches us at all of our points.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Places you dream of
20,278 posts, read 12,140,849 times
Reputation: 8793
it is simple- INTENT... of the heart... even the best scripture can be redone , and twisted to become a sin against God,, it is all about our intent.
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,293 posts, read 7,667,149 times
Reputation: 1723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Let's not make this about me. I assume that the OP,s statement, which he has not clarified the intent of his meaning, ''This doctrine one need not DO Gods will is deceiving multitudes into deception.'', concerns the issue of salvation by grace through faith, versus salvation by works which is legalism and which the apostle Paul called a different gospel which is contrary to apostolic teaching in Galatians 1.

As I stated in post #2 of this thread,
God's will for the unbeliever is to believe on Christ so that he may have eternal life (Acts 16:31). If the unbeliever disobeys that command he will spend eternity future in the lake of fire.

God's will for the believer is to grow to spiritual maturity. That necessitates being obedient to God's will to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18). If the believer fails to obey that command he will incur divine discipline in time and miss out on eternal rewards, but he will still be eternally saved.
Mike, it isn't about salvation by faith vs. by works. That is a red herring you use to deflect attention from the real issue, which is what constitutes "believe on Christ." You say that all one needs to do is believe that Christ is capable of saving you and ask Him to do so. Reason, the Spirit and other references to salvation demonstrate that a real change in direction, a commitment to follow is required and no one who is not willing to repent and commit can be said to "believe on."
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:23 PM
 
21,911 posts, read 16,721,895 times
Reputation: 8732
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Mike, it isn't about salvation by faith vs. by works. That is a red herring you use to deflect attention from the real issue, which is what constitutes "believe on Christ." You say that all one needs to do is believe that Christ is capable of saving you and ask Him to do so. Reason, the Spirit and other references to salvation demonstrate that a real change in direction, a commitment to follow is required and no one who is not willing to repent and commit can be said to "believe on."
I said not to make this about me. Save your debater's techniques about casting red herrings and deflecting. Post #22 already refutes what you are saying here.

Your position is called Lordship salvation and is not Biblical. Believing on Christ does not mean making a commitment to live a life of obedience. It simply means to recognize that Christ died for your sins and rose again with the result that you simply trust in His finished work on the Cross. A person is eternally saved in the very first moment in which he places his faith in Christ.

People who hold to Lordship salvation will say things such as, 'You are saved by faith alone, but the faith which saves is never alone.' And it is simply a backdoor approach to requiring works - and a commitment to live a life of obedience is works, something that takes effort on your part, something which you must do in order to be saved. Lordship salvation says that the free gift of eternal life costs you something.

Lordship salvation fails to recognize the reality of carnal believers and backslidden believers. It fails to recognize that while the believer has a new nature he also retains his old sin nature and can potentially live his entire Christian life under the control of his old sin nature which means he will live in continual disobedience. But he remains eternally saved.

Eternal life is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. Not by commitment on your part to obedience.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-08-2013 at 08:57 PM..
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,293 posts, read 7,667,149 times
Reputation: 1723
So, there you have it. Yes, it is NOT just an individual posting on CD forums, it is a doctrine taught by many churches.
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:56 PM
 
Location: california
5,664 posts, read 4,888,168 times
Reputation: 6683
Do you meant to say that God is compromising with sin?
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,576,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
Do you meant to say that God is compromising with sin?
No, not at all. My sin is nailed to the cross and I'm cleansed from it by the blood flowing down over my sinful self.

God did not compromise with sin, he made a remedy FOR sin. Does coming to earth in the flesh, living a life as a poor homeless man, being betrayed and hung on a cross to die sound like a compromise to you?
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:24 PM
 
146 posts, read 142,211 times
Reputation: 51
No one should expect to have eternal life if they do not keep the sayings of Christ.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. John 8:51

If you don't keep his sayings you will surely perish.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,293 posts, read 7,667,149 times
Reputation: 1723
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
No, not at all. My sin is nailed to the cross and I'm cleansed from it by the blood flowing down over my sinful self.

God did not compromise with sin, he made a remedy FOR sin. Does coming to earth in the flesh, living a life as a poor homeless man, being betrayed and hung on a cross to die sound like a compromise to you?
I think Arleigh's question was to Mike555 and it is a good one.
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