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[SIZE=2]urbanlemur: I think we must be careful not to find something in a passage because we need to and not because it is actually there. If you had never heard anything about eschatology and simply read Matthew 24, what would your very first impression be? Without outside influence being brought to bear on this passage, it flows easily as a unit and portrays Jesus as speaking to His disciples there with Him about things that would impact them. There is nothing here that indicates that Jesus is speaking of very different time frames. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]There is no doubt that Jesus is clearly addressing those first-century disciples standing right there with Him. The numerous "YOUs" attest to this. When He says "YOU will hear of wars and rumors of wars," He means THEM. THEY were not to be troubled. THEY were to be persecuted and killed. Did He not tell this to THEM earlier when He sent out the Twelve to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 10)? He warned THEM then of the things that would happen to THEM--THEY would be delivered up to councils, scourged in synagogues, and persecuted. Then Jesus told THEM--"YOU will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Mat. 10:23). He was coming back to THEM. Both Matthew 10 and 24 speak of the same events and the same time frame. (Note: The capitals are meant for emphasis only—they are not intended to demonstrate annoyance or anger or in-your-face)![/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Just because Matthew 24:6 states that the end was not yet (at the time of the wars and rumors of wars), does not mean it should be thrust thousands of years into the future. The wars and famines and earthquakes, etc. were merely the beginning. THEY were to also be to delivered up to tribulation and be killed and hated--[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]"Then they will deliver YOU up to tribulation and kill YOU, and YOU will be hated by all nations for My name's sake" (verse 9). The end was not yet (with the wars and pestilences and earthquakes, etc.) but it was soon to come thereafter. Jesus makes it clear that those disciples were to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. He gives no indication to them that He is speaking of another time far far distant from their day and that there is to be another abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet! Such things must be read into this passage. The time frame is given in verse 34--"THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (including verses 29-31).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]A study of OT prophetic language would put the "problem" of verses 29-31 to rest. This is clearly figurative language utilized by prophets of God to express His judgment upon a nation or people. God is portrayed as coming in judgment on Egypt in Ezek. 32:7-8.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]"Son of Man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him . . . . when I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, and bring darkness upon your land." This is apocalyptic language not to be taken literally. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]God also came in judgment against Babylon (Isa. 13:8, 10, 13)--"Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land DESOLATE; and He will destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine . . . . I will shake the heavens, and the EARTH WILL MOVE OUT OF HER PLACE." Did this literally happen when God judged Babylon?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]God came again in judgment against Edom (Isa. 34)--"And the mountains shall be melted with their blood. ALL the hosts of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; ALL their hosts shall fall down . . . . For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; indeed it shall come down on EDOM, and on the people of My curse, for JUDGMENT. The sword of the Lord is filled with blood."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Did these things literally happen when God came in judgment against Edom, and Babylon and Egypt? Did all the hosts of heaven actually fall, did the earth literally move out of her place, did the Lord have a literal sword filled with blood? This is apocalyptic metaphorical language--language any Jew would have easily understood as did those disciples to whom Jesus spoke in Matthew 24. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Furthermore, it was the SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven that appeared, not the Son of Man Himself. The tribes of the LAND mourned because of Him, recognizing in the destruction of their city and temple that God had again come in judgment against them. This was also the time when He gathered together all His saints from all nations officially into His body, the Church. The Old Covenant with its shadows and types vanished away (Heb. 8) and the New Covenant emerged fully, made up of those "Jews" who were circumcised in their hearts. This was the great hope of Paul and his fellow believers (1 Thes. 4 and 1 Cor. 15). The timing of all of this is settled in verse 34--THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]What is the time frame for Romans 8:18ff? Paul did not consider his present suffering comparable to the glory that was then ABOUT TO (mello) be revealed in them. He further speaks of their being more than conquerors and that nothing can separate them from God's love, not things present nor things ABOUT TO (mello) come. Paul describes the groanings as being "until now"--up to his time! When Jesus fully established His kingdom of perfect righteousness (the new heavens and new earth of the new covenant), having abolished forever the old heavens and the old earth (Old Covenant types and shadows as seen in the Mosaic system), all was made new—a new creation no longer under curse. The new heavens and new earth no longer groan under the weight of sin! Only righteousness dwells within its gates—“outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters and whoever loves and practices a lie.” (Revelation 22:15). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]This was my point with Matthew 24—we must either take verses 29-31 in some physical sense and thereby be forced to do great injustice to the meaning Jesus ALWAYS gives to the expression “this generation (i.e. those contemporaneous to Him) or we take Jesus at His Word and attempt to rethink the concept of and nature of His return that has been presented to the Church for many years by those we consider scholars! In other words, if verses 29-31 are taken as apocalyptic, metaphorical prophetic language, “this generation” can be given its correct and natural meaning. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Do not the many time statements in the NT (over 100) cause you concern? Are you comfortable with either ignoring them or assigning to them meanings totally foreign to their predominant and normal renderings? Are you sure beyond doubt that your view of the nature of Christ’s coming is accurate? Do you have a reasonable justification for giving words strange and unusual meanings? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]There is a reformation taking place in the Church today (preterism). Agree with it or disagree with it, you must understand it. It is founded on an honest attempt to do justice to the clear time statements in the Scriptures found in the words of Jesus and His Apostles. It is a refutation of the fanciful speculations of such as Hal Lindsey, Jerry Jenkins, Tim LaHaye, and Jack Van Impe who have impacted the minds of many unsuspecting members within the body and nonmembers outside the body. It is an attempt to defend our Lord against the skeptics of our day who recognize that Jesus and the Apostles declared that He was coming back in that generation. In light the glaring nonoccurrence of promises, they point their fingers and accuse—“Jesus is a false prophet, the Apostles are false teachers, and Christianity is a false religion.” They are not and should not be satisfied with desperate double fulfillment and postponement theories.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]If one is assured of his position after in depth and thorough study, he should be comfortable with giving other viewpoints serious consideration. Unfortunately, most do not give preterism due attention and summarily dismiss it without even really understanding what preterists are saying.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]I am fully versed in the teachings of pre-trib, pre-mil dispensationalism, having been one for over twenty years. I wish others would at least be open to trying to understand what preterism is saying before discounting it as unbiblical and heretical. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]I would really like to do a study on just the words of Scripture. What do they say and not what have others told us they say. If after that we come to the same conclusions we already hold, than fine. At least we have done all to understand.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Thanks for your consideration. In Christ, Preterist[/SIZE]
Well, I'll tell you what. You read into it what you want and the rest of us will glean from it what we will. The differences are rather petty issues that don't amount to much in the grand scheme of things. The only thing that does matter is whether or not you have Christ in your life. If you do, the Holy Spirit will guide you in your reading and when all is said and done, eventually we will reside with Him for all eternity in heaven. Nuff said.
BTW, just for clarification, I am not angry or upset. I can just see that we are going round and round with this and it is leading us nowhere. I wish I had more time but I don't so I have to withdraw from this particular discussion.
Well, I'll tell you what. You read into it what you want and the rest of us will glean from it what we will. The differences are rather petty issues that don't amount to much in the grand scheme of things. The only thing that does matter is whether or not you have Christ in your life. If you do, the Holy Spirit will guide you in your reading and when all is said and done, eventually we will reside with Him for all eternity in heaven. Nuff said.
urbanlemur: I must say that I was somewhat disappointed that you responded so quickly to my post as it indicates to me that you merely skimmed it. And that is fine. That is your prerogative. But the entire point is this--do we read into the Scriptures or glean from the Scriptures. There is a big difference and an important difference. For if we read into the Scriptures in one place we might very well read into them in other places and miss God's truth for us.
I disagree that the differences are "petty issues" but if that is how you see them, then there is no need to discuss it any further. The pews are filled with those who refuse to be good Bereans--they do not search the Scriptures daily to see whether the things they are being taught from the pulpit are true. They let others doing their studying for them. That is a dangerous thing. I am definitely not accusing you of this--I don't know you. Only you know the answer. But as for me, I want to be a good workman, doing all that I can to make sure that I am rightly dividing the Word of truth.
I will continue to look for someone who wants to dig in a little deeper! Thanks for your time.
BTW, I am taking Berean courses at the church I am going to right now so I think I am getting a pretty darn good education. I wish you well but I really don't have a lot of time to discuss things in length due to circumstances at home and with family. I trust you will understand.
BTW, I am taking Berean courses at the church I am going to right now so I think I am getting a pretty darn good education. I wish you well but I really don't have a lot of time to discuss things in length due to circumstances at home and with family. I trust you will understand.
urbanlemur: Why are you so sure that verses 29-31 have not yet happened? Jesus gives no indication to those disciples that He is changing time frames or that He is speaking to any other than them. In fact, in verse 34 He clearly indicates that all those things were to come upon that generation--that includes verses 29-31.
I believe the problem is that we have been conditioned to see verses 29-31 in a certain wa--as I was for over twenty years as a pre-mil, pre-trib. dispensationalist. But if one studies verses 29-31 in light of the typical prophetic figurative language common in the OT, he can see that the things spoken of fit that type of language. The disciples, being Jewish themselves and very familiar with the OT Scriptures, would have easily understood what Jesus was saying. Cloud comings were indicative of God's coming in judgment upon a nation or people. Edom (Isa. 34:4-5), Egypt (Ezek. 32:7-8), Babylon (Isa. 13:9, 10, 13) and even Israel (Amos 5:18; 8:9) were judged by God not in His actual presence but through the instrumentality of other nations. In each instance there were figurative upheavals in the heavens and earth.
Jesus told His disciples right there with Him that they would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Again, He gives no indication that He is suddenly beginning to talk to a generation far removed from theirs. Jesus told those disciples to watch and be ready because He was coming back in that generation--"This generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." That includes verses 29-31. Whenever Jesus uses that expression (this generation), He is always referring to those contemporaneous to Himself.
It is my belief that the modern Church has failed to understand the nature of Christ's return and thus is unable to see its first-century fulfillment. As a result, many have found it necessary to give "this generation" a strange and awkward meaning.
I am really not interested in arguing over this--I know the futurist arguments and they know mine. I would like to study the POSSIBILITY that verses 29-31 are used by Jesus in a figurative sense--if any are willing to humor me. This should in no way be a threat to what others believe. The question is: Is there some OT justification and merit for understanding verses 29-31 metaphorically? Is it POSSIBLE? Is it possible to take Jesus at His word in verse 34 and not do an injustice to verses 29-31?
Thanks!
Preterist
Where is Jesus?---Is he here?---does he know your pain and wish you to join in a public dialogue seeking resolution?
To seek Christ is very simple?---To find him? LOL
Are we the true the one and the many? Cleverness is not the key-faith! and the infinite listening?
I have read some strange beliefs on this forum, but Preterist yours seems to the strangest. Romans 14:11 says every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, that has not happened. Jesus is coming back in power and glory visible to all the world, I have not seen Him, have you? Rev 21:3-4 "I heard a loud shout from the throne saying look the home of God is now among His people, He will live with them and they will be His people. God Himself will be with them. He will remove all of their sorrows and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. For the old world and its evils are gone FOREVER".
To me this is proof that Jesus has not returned. I've already explained about the word soon. Do you really believe what you've posted???? I have never heard any one who believes that, what denomination are you?
ILNC: I am sorry, but your explanation about "soon" does not satisfy. That word is never used to convey anything other than nearness or closeness. We must not change the simple meanings of words.
There are over 100 time statements in the NT. In them, God uses expressions of time in their normal, common, everyday uses. Shortly means shortly. Soon means soon. And near means near.
When the Scriptures say that the Passover was near, what does near mean (John 2:13)? When the Scriptures say that Jesus was about to be delivered up, what does about to be mean (Mat. 26:18)? Soon or far? When the Scriptures say that someone was to shortly do something or go somewhere, what does that mean?
I am simply asking that we consider the problems involved in taking simple words with simple meanings and redefining them because they don't fit our preconceived ideas.
We must understand the Revelation and Matthew 24 within the clear time restrictions that are given. All the things mentioned in Matthew 24 to those specific disciples were to take place in their generation ("This generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place"). The timing of the events of Revelation are confined to those that were to SHORTLY take place because the time was then NEAR.
tachos--(shortly--Rev. 1:1; 22:6)
Acts 25:4--Festus states that Paul should be kept in Caesarea and that "he himself was going there SHORTLY [soon]." Did he mean that his going there was always imminent; that it could happen at any time? No, he was going there SOON.
See also Luke 18:8; Acts 12:7; 22:18; 25:4; Rom. 16:20.
engus--(near, at hand--Rev. 1:3; 22:10)
Matthew 26:18--Jesus said "My time is at hand." What did He mean? His time was imminent; it could happen at any time?" No, His time was SOON. He was crucified shortly thereafter.
John 2:13--"The Jews' passover was at hand." Was it imminent, always in a state of about to happen? No, it was to come about SOON.
See also Matthew 24:32, 33; Mark 13:28, 29; Luke 19:11; 21:30, 31; John 3:23; 6:4, 19, 23; 7:2; 11:18, 54, 55; 19:20, 42; Acts 1:12; 9:38; 27:8, Rom. 10:8; Eph. 2:13, 17; Phi. 4:5; Heb. 6:8; 8:13)
Preterism is the only approach that is honest and consistent with the time indicators. It is also the only approach that silences the antagonistic critics of Christianity who clearly recognize what Jesus and the apostles were saying about His coming. Jesus said He was coming back soon in that day; if He did not come, He is a liar, deceiver, or lacks the power to do what He promised. He is a false prophet. The apostles said He was coming back in their day; if He did not come, they are liars, deceivers or misinformed. They are false teachers. The Bible teaches that Jesus was coming back soon and shortly--that His coming was at hand. If He did not come back then, the Bible is full of errors and Christianity is a false religion.
All postponement and dual fulfillment theories do not satisfy.
Jesus said He was coming back soon to that generation; the Apostles said He was coming back soon in their day; the time statements in the Bible clearly indicate that He was coming back soon--in the first century. Will we take take Jesus at His word? Will we take the inspired writers at their word? Will we take the Bible as it is written?
2 Peter 3:8-10 "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed" (NRSV).
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