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I think Bible fundamentalists are well intentioned and the source for every fundamentalist’s faith is the Bible. I think all of us agree on that. Fundamentalists will always settle any argument by citing the Scriptures.
What is the cause of the deep devotion to the Bible as the absolute truth? This clearly leads to absolutism and there is generally no compromise.
Fundamentalists take the bible out of the historical context of the Church or the struggles of 1st and second century Christianity. One would think the NT was already written down when Jesus walked the Earth.
For Catholics the NT comes after the Church. The mother Church is important as well as the Apostolic succession and the early fathers of the church (the second generation apostles).
That is the main difference between Sola Scriptura folks and Catholics. The latter have the Bible in a vacuum and the former recognize the Bible as a byproduct of the Church.
I think Bible fundamentalists are well intentioned and the source for every fundamentalist’s faith is the Bible. I think all of us agree on that. Fundamentalists will always settle any argument by citing the Scriptures.
What is the cause of the deep devotion to the Bible as the absolute truth? This clearly leads to absolutism and there is generally no compromise.
It is "God-breathed". It is inspired by God. We believe the apostles and prophets wrote it, under God's inspiration.
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Fundamentalists take the bible out of the historical context of the Church or the struggles of 1st and second century Christianity. One would think the NT was already written down when Jesus walked the Earth.
For Catholics the NT comes after the Church. The mother Church is important as well as the Apostolic succession and the early fathers of the church (the second generation apostles).
Who are these "Fundamentalists" that believe that? I realize the NT was written by the apostles -- men in the early church.
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That is the main difference between Sola Scriptura folks and Catholics. The latter have the Bible in a vacuum and the former recognize the Bible as a byproduct of the Church.
You have told me that you don't believe the bible, OR the church to be inerrant. So we're not really sure WHAT you believe.
Equally wrong. The one makes an organization of men authoritative, the other makes a compendium of perceptions about God authoritative. Jesus never promised a book nor an earthly organization to guide us into truth.
We need to look back to find the answer. I don't have a lot of time right now but one thing that caught my attention were the similarities between these two comments;
1. JG Horton 1-8-14, "There are many things in scripture that I do not fully understand or even 'agree' with, but, I readily recognize that the problem is mine ... and not with God or His Word. It seems arrogant and pretentious to glibly declare one's self wiser than God's inspired Word ... which has remained unchanged since it was written (NT - almost two-thousand years ago)."
2. St. Augustine-A long time ago, "For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed...... I myself have failed to understand it . . . I believe, my brother, that this is your own opinion as well as mine."
Both men are saying the same thing.
I have to run but will leave you with this for now;
From Providentissimus Deus (1893), Pope Leo XIII "But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred. For the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond, because (as they wrongly think) in a question of the truth or falsehood of a passage, we should consider not so much what God has said as the reason and purpose which He had in mind in saying it — this system cannot be tolerated."
Many argue things changed with Vatican II, but writings shows otherwise.......more later.
Why versus? I don't get that. Why not say "in disagreement"? I'm not trying to be PC.
I don't have a denomination favorite... because I try to promte unity. But... What family agrees on anything? However, I tend to seek guidence within scripture first then to seek wise Godly council. Churches provide council... but not always wise and not always Godly.
I'm not a Roman Catholic... for the record. I do believe the RC church is the mother church and has many children. A good sign of life is replication. not cloning.
Why versus? I don't get that. Why not say "in disagreement"? I'm not trying to be PC.
I don't have a denomination favorite... because I try to promte unity. But... What family agrees on anything? However, I tend to seek guidence within scripture first then to seek wise Godly council. Churches provide council... but not always wise and not always Godly.
I'm not a Roman Catholic... for the record. I do believe the RC church is the mother church and has many children. A good sign of life is replication. not cloning.
... just sayin'
Good points!
We Catholics share a lot with the Sola Scriptura folks. The main differences are that we have the Scriptures plus the Church and Sacred Apostolic Tradition.
Perhaps I can explain the above a little bit better:
Lets pretend a person wants to learn French and know everything about French culture. He buys a book which he memorizes line by line. This is the equivalent of a Sola Scriptura person.
However, to know the French language and culture really well one needs to be born and raised in France . No matter how much the "French wannabe" studies the book he will never understand the "je ne sais quoi" of what is like to be French.
Catholicism has its origin in the immediate post Jesus era. The Sola Scriptura folks appear 1500 years later and decided to be Christians by Sola Scriptura. Howevever, they left behind things that are not written anywhere. Now 500 years later they still have Sola Scriptura in a vacuum with no solid tradition behind the Scriptures.
The Sola Scriptura folks have defined themselves by the book and nothing else. So what else can they do to justify their existence?
We need to look back to find the answer. I don't have a lot of time right now but one thing that caught my attention were the similarities between these two comments;
1. JG Horton 1-8-14, "There are many things in scripture that I do not fully understand or even 'agree' with, but, I readily recognize that the problem is mine ... and not with God or His Word. It seems arrogant and pretentious to glibly declare one's self wiser than God's inspired Word ... which has remained unchanged since it was written (NT - almost two-thousand years ago)."
2. St. Augustine-A long time ago, "For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed...... I myself have failed to understand it . . . I believe, my brother, that this is your own opinion as well as mine."
Both men are saying the same thing.
I have to run but will leave you with this for now;
From Providentissimus Deus (1893), Pope Leo XIII "But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred. For the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond, because (as they wrongly think) in a question of the truth or falsehood of a passage, we should consider not so much what God has said as the reason and purpose which He had in mind in saying it — this system cannot be tolerated."
Many argue things changed with Vatican II, but writings shows otherwise.......more later.
It is a fault to ignore Mother Church. But it is a virtue to love the Bible. We can love other things too little, but we can’t love the Bible too much. We can love it wrongly. But we are not wrong to love it.
Sola Scriptura folks believe the bible is full of miracles, inspired, infallible, sufficient, authoritative, and literal. Most catholics believe the same and that is why you posted the quote above. I am certain Pope Francis would agree!
Sola Scriptura folks do not emphasize or even admit the human side of the Bible’s authorship. Many Catholics recognize the human side even if the writers were inspired. Many are not naive and know the Bible has been copied and altered many times. So yes, it was inspired, but unfortunately was not written by God and we do not have the original manuscripts.
OTOH, Sola Scriptura folks believe the Bible was breathed by God word for word. Fundamentalists believe in [word-for-word] inspiration.” Catholics don't always do that. Genesis is a great example. We recognize there are two different writers and that the book is allegoric,
I find it interesting that there are people that call themselves "Christian" but DISOBEY the very WORDS of the individual that initiated the Faith. Just read what He Himself says in the Gospels.
I believe in JESUS. I believe in the Power of God to speak through Jesus, and the Catholic Church is in REBELLION against the teachings of JESUS Christ. It's that simple.
And I believe it is clear they are going to have to answer to Him for that. This is what I believe, and we will find out.
Matthew 6:6-7
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Matthew 7 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
The problem with trusting in men beyond the Bible is those men have over the centuries changed their beliefs, violated Scripture and ... changed Scripture. Oh and exalted themselves.
I would prefer what we all accept as God's word, the Bible. It is actually pretty clear on virtually everything. Man is not.
The Jews in Jesus time and before (and later) are a good example. Traditions of men, ignore clear scripture, exalt their "verbal" ideas, which were then written down, to equality with Scripture and .... Well Jesus told us how he and his Father felt about that. Why do so many ignore it?
I believe in JESUS. I believe in the Power of God to speak through Jesus, and the Catholic Church is in REBELLION against the teachings of JESUS Christ. It's that simple.
And I believe it is clear they are going to have to answer to Him for that. This is what I believe, and we will find out.
You sound like a catholic Inquisitor from the 12th century.
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Matthew 6:6-7
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
The above is a valid point. But, you guys forget that those words were against pagans that did not believe in our God. I believe God knows our heart when we say several "Our Father" in a row as per the Rosary. I assume you know the Rosary includes the "Our Father" right?
You did not post the entire passage of Matthew. Here is the whole thing:
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Matthew 6:7-15
7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this:
“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.[a]
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,[b]
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread,[c]
12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.[d]
Jesus commanded us the say the :Our Father". We do this in every mass even though it is a repetitive prayer. So it is clear Jesus was speaking against the pagans. Otherwise why ask for a repetitive memorized prayer?
In any event now you see everything has a reason. Furthermore, the Rosary is an instrument for Christian meditation which is a cultural value pass fro generation to generation.
Last edited by Julian658; 01-08-2014 at 05:51 PM..
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not cloning.
