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While I agree that there are differences in some points of doctrine among the various denominations, I would venture to say that if one were to ask a Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, etc., they would all agree on one description of God and the underlying basic in Christ and His salvation message. Would you agree?
True because none of them was willing to go so far as to question the authenticity of the Nicene Council and Creed. But are there Christian religions, other than the Mormons, that do not accept the concept of the Holy Trinity.
The Nicene Council was a mess, quite frankly. They also lynched the formost proponent of the Arian viewpoint, Arius. The way that it all went down leaves me to question the authenticity of the Nicene Creed.
The nature of God is not subject to popular opinion. It doesn't really matter if the whole Christian world believes one particular way. That doesn't make it true.
Christians do not believe in God because of popular opinion....they believe in God because the Bible tells us who He is and because of our personal relationship with Him. To suggest that we believe in God because it is a popular thing to do is erroneous.
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In my encounters with Evangelical Christianity, I get the impression they believe that the Bible just dropped out of the sky one day, whole and complete, accompanied by thunder and the voice of God from the skys saying, "This is my only true word! This is all you're ever going to get! Goodbye!"
Since God is pretty thorough and authoritative, there was never really any sense among believers that anything else was necessary since it was believed that everything we needed regarding salvation was present within the books themselves. It's not a matter of limiting God but accepting our own limitations and believing that what He presented to us was enough.
The nature of God is not subject to popular opinion. It doesn't really matter if the whole Christian world believes one particular way. That doesn't make it true. Thunder has given a very nice description of the genesis of the Nicene Creed. It does not sound like inspiration to me. But you and others can believe as you wish. But if you are going to claim inspiration on the part of Constantine and others (a very off-the-wall claim in my opinion), then you are really talking about the spirit of prophecy and revelation 225 years after the close of the apostolic period.
So did the Lord call prophets and apostles under the aegis of Emperor Constantine? That is what you are saying if you claim the Nicene Creed was crafted under the inspiration of God. And if you say that, then you cannot dismiss Joseph Smith as a prophet on the arguement that the Heavens are closed and God has done his work and all prophecy and apostolic work ended with the apostles. Nor can you fix your doctrine to the notion that the Bible is the end of God's word to man, since you now have intoduced new "revelation" in the form of the Nicene Creed. Remember that the Trinitarian concept is not defined in the Bible-- according to most non-Mormon scholars as I have pointed out and as Thunder has pointed out.
So you are in a quandary. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Christians do not believe in God because of popular opinion....they believe in God because the Bible tells us who He is and because of our personal relationship with Him. To suggest that we believe in God because it is a popular thing to do is erroneous.
Since God is pretty thorough and authoritative, there was never really any sense among believers that anything else was necessary since it was believed that everything we needed regarding salvation was present within the books themselves. It's not a matter of limiting God but accepting our own limitations and believing that what He presented to us was enough.
Urban read the rest of my post. Read it carefully. I did not say that you believed in the Creed because of its popularity, but I did say that just because a creed is accepted, i.e., popular in the religious sense, does not make it right.
Also, you can't have new revelation as embodied in the Creed and insist that there is no new revelation or need for new revelation. You are in contradiction to yourself. Are the Heavens closed or not? Can God reveal to man his will through the spirit of prophecy in these latter days as well as in ancient days or not?
Preterist, I think you need to take everything you just said and apply the following verse of scripture to it: "Sayest this thing thyself, or did others tell it thee." Do you actually know why you are saying what you are saying? Or are you simply accepting the "facts" that were spoon-fed to you by other people?
One thing that seems completely and thoroughly incomprehensible to me. IT IS DEEPLY OFFENSIVE TO MORMONS TO BE TOLD THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. And the rest of Christianity just doesn't seem to be able to comprehend why. Worse yet, they simple DO NOT CARE.
Why is it so offensive? For exactly the same reasons that any other Christian religion would find it offensive. Mormons, just like every other Christian faith believe very strongly in the same Jesus of Nazareth that everybody else does. They devote their lives to him. They try to live up to his perfect example. They rely on His sacrifice to obtain forgiveness of their sins.
And the rest of Christianity is calling them liars.
OF COURSE their offended and they have every right to be.
Actually, if we're being honest, the Catholics beat them to it by several centuries. Unless you are Catholic, you are heretics and Apostates from the true and living Church of Christ -- from a Catholic point of view. Thankfully, they've toned their rhetoric down within the last couple hundred years and are not trying to re-convert everybody by killing them. This doesn't change that fact that, according to Catholic Dogma, all Baptists, Methodists, Charismatics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Greek Orthodox and every other sect other than themselves are heretical and false.
Protestant "Christians" have improved in their expression of their contempt for Mormonism greatly. They no longer murder them, rape their women, incite mob violence upon them nor do they drive them from place to place. Nope. These days, they're content to just call them names.
None of these "facts" about the nature of God were ever specifically enumerated in the Bible. They are based upon councils and creeds that occurred many hundreds of years after the Bible was written. These creeds were enforced by the massacre of all who would not accept them. As I've already stated, Mormonism has most certainly not postulated any new doctrine on these matters. They have simply unwittingly found themselves on the wrong end of an almost 2000 year old argument within Christian Theology. The debate over the nature of God.
This too is nowhere to be found in the Bible. There are verses in the Bible that are used to debate in favor of this theory. Mormons are not going to disagree with some of this. From their perspective, Christ was an Omniscient and Omnipotent being. He was an infinite being and nothing short of an infinite being would suffice. On that matter, Mormonism does not differ from Christian Dogma.
There once was a woman named Mary who was a virgin. She was wrought upon by the Holy Spirit, conceived and gave birth to a son named Jesus. This Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus taught many things in his life, lived a perfect life, established the truth and condemned the false doctrines of mankind. He was a man of peace and his teachings were for all mankind to love one another and to do good. He said "Come follow me."
I believe in that Jesus. I think you do too. As it turns out, so do Mormons.
Any other nitpicking falls into the category of theological debate between Christians. The debate over the nature of God is very old. Do a little research and you might learn something.
Belittling the Spiritual experiences of others does not make you better than them.
Wow, that's cramming a lot of non-Biblical postulation and Biblical interpretation into a single paragraph. Unfortunately, 99% of what you just said is based upon denominational dogma and is not explicitly stated in Scripture. Don't get me wrong, you're coming to a lot of excellent conclusions, but if you are going to attempt to somehow prove that somebody else has no right to call themselves Christians, please check your own denomination's dogmas at the door and stick things that are actually contained in the Bible.
Mormon doctrine would not differ too greatly with your statements regarding the condescension of God. Any dedicated Mormon can also say, "As for me, I am filled with the love of Christ in my heart and a gratitude words cannot express" Are you inferring that they're lying about it?
By the way, it so happens that no all Christians accept the idea that "God spoke the world into existence." There are other viewpoints. And again, there is no verse of scripture that ever says, "God spoke the world into existence." That is just yet another example of scriptural interpretation favored by some denominations.
And yet it's still the same Jesus. How wacky is that?
Yep, that's the Jesus that Mormons believe in all right. If I'm wrong, some Mormon please let me know. Only slightly embellished. Almost completely scriptural. Not bad. Okay, this bit has confused me greatly. Are you quoting song from your church to try to prove a point here? I don't get it. Or are you now calling everyone who is not of the "Born Again Christian" persuasion a bunch of non-Christians now?
Preterist, I sincerely hope that God will one day forgive you for your self-righteous bigotry against others. I've little doubt that it is not entirely your fault. You were taught to believe that they were not Christian and heretical. You've clearly accepted that teaching. You're not alone there. Most Protestant faiths seem to have engaged themselves quite heavily in attacking the Mormon religion. A tremendous amount of time and church money has been thrown into this misguided obsession of tearing down the cherished faiths of others. The Mormon religion is not the only victim of this very un-Christian behavior, but they appear to be the favorite target.
The most ridiculous part of this: Most Christians have no idea how their own sect came into being nor how it's own doctrines developed. The majority of Protestant Christianity knows more about what is wrong with Mormonism and it's history than they know about the history of their own denomination.
Sure, Mormons believe some pretty unusual things. They're not alone in that. Plenty of mainstream Christian denominations believe some things others would consider very strange. That doesn't damn them to an eternity in hell, in my opinion. I've yet to come up with anything within Mormon beliefs that would keep them from the Kingdom of God. I've also yet to come up with anything that they believe that is expressly contrary to the Bible. They believe in Jesus Christ and rely upon him for their salvation. They are Christians. Don't be too shocked when you bumb into a bunch of Mormons in Heaven.
It is quite interesting to me that they seem to be one of the first religions to come up with a way to claim their doctrine and set of beliefs are the correct ones (just like everyone else has) without damning everyone else to hell for eternity.
godofthunder: Who first offended whom? Was it not Joseph Smith, taking opportunities afforded him by the inexcusable differences in doctrine prevalent in Christendom, who declared all mainstream churches accursed by God and totally void of the gospel message? Does not the Mormon church continue to teach such things--that only Mormons have the true restored gospel? Do you find it strange that WE find that offensive? It is just as offensive to me when I drive down a street and see a sign for a "FULL" Gospel church, suggesting that all others have only a partial gospel of some kind. In the case of Mormon attacks on Christian doctrine and possession of the Gospel, are we being proactive or reactive? I suggest the latter.
Again, you could facilitate understanding it you would clearly acknowledge or disavow that your church teaches the following:
Jesus, Satan, and all of us for that matter are created beings who are the progeny of a father god and mother god who reign over this world. We were all related before we were transported into the physical bodies of babies born here on earth.
According to Mormon doctrine, Jesus is God's son only in the sense that we all are--except that He was specially chosen to be the savior of mankind.
The god, with whom we have to do, was once a mere man. But he, through good works, achieved godhood just as any good MORMON man can do. Once a man achieves such godhood, he becomes god with his god-wife over another planet. They procreate and produce spiritual children with which to populate that world.
Those who claim to be Christians outside of Mormonism will also enter heaven--but never the highest level. Only Mormons in good standing can do that. Most of us will barely squeak by and will occupy the very lowest levels of heaven. No nonMormon will ever attain godhood. But this should not offend US?
If this is what you believe, claim it openly. If this is not what you believe, claim so openly.
You cannot believe the above things and expect that we who hold only to the Christ portrayed in the Bible alone should accept you into the fold of Christianity. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If you believe the above things, you do not believe in our Jesus and you are not a Christian in the sense that that term has always been understood.
I have nothing to seek forgiveness from God for regarding these matters as someone suggested. As a true follower of Christ, I expect to be hated and misunderstood. Christ warned us of such things because He Himself was hated and misunderstood. That will not dissuade me. Why? Because I seek to win an argument or bash other people's religions? No! But because in the message of Christ and His salvation lies the only hope for lost sinners. I seek not to make someone a baptist, or a presbyterian or a methodist. I seek only to proclaim the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God of very God, eternally existent with the Father, and the only way of salvation for a lost world.
Again, repent and believe on the name of the true Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. There is no salvation in the Mormon Jesus.
The nature of God is not subject to popular opinion. It doesn't really matter if the whole Christian world believes one particular way. That doesn't make it true. Thunder has given a very nice description of the genesis of the Nicene Creed. It does not sound like inspiration to me. But you and others can believe as you wish. But if you are going to claim inspiration on the part of Constantine and others (a very off-the-wall claim in my opinion), then you are really talking about the spirit of prophecy and revelation 225 years after the close of the apostolic period.
So did the Lord call prophets and apostles under the aegis of Emperor Constantine? That is what you are saying if you claim the Nicene Creed was crafted under the inspiration of God. And if you say that, then you cannot dismiss Joseph Smith as a prophet on the arguement that the Heavens are closed and God has done his work and all prophecy and apostolic work ended with the apostles. Nor can you fix your doctrine to the notion that the Bible is the end of God's word to man, since you now have intoduced new "revelation" in the form of the Nicene Creed. Remember that the Trinitarian concept is not defined in the Bible-- according to most non-Mormon scholars as I have pointed out and as Thunder has pointed out.
So you are in a quandary. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
It does not make sense to me that you would insist that everthing we need is in the Bible and ignore the vast differences of interpretation of that Bible in the Christian world today. These divisions in Christianity are not in harmony with the teachings of our Lord or His apostles.
It does not make sense to me that you would insist that everthing we need is in the Bible and ignore the vast differences of interpretation of that Bible in the Christian world today. These divisions in Christianity are not in harmony with the teachings of our Lord or His apostles.
Everything we do need is in the Bible but it is man, not God, that created the differences. Christ's teachings have not changed over the course of the years but man has focused on a particular point which is what has caused the differences. Still, His teachings are still what they were when He spoke them and this is the underlying focus of His church, i.e. the body of Christ.
godofthunder: Who first offended whom? Was it not Joseph Smith, taking opportunities afforded him by the inexcusable differences in doctrine prevalent in Christendom, who declared all mainstream churches accursed by God and totally void of the gospel message? Does not the Mormon church continue to teach such things--that only Mormons have the true restored gospel? Do you find it strange that WE find that offensive? It is just as offensive to me when I drive down a street and see a sign for a "FULL" Gospel church, suggesting that all others have only a partial gospel of some kind. In the case of Mormon attacks on Christian doctrine and possession of the Gospel, are we being proactive or reactive? I suggest the latter.
Again, you could facilitate understanding it you would clearly acknowledge or disavow that your church teaches the following:
Jesus, Satan, and all of us for that matter are created beings who are the progeny of a father god and mother god who reign over this world. We were all related before we were transported into the physical bodies of babies born here on earth.
According to Mormon doctrine, Jesus is God's son only in the sense that we all are--except that He was specially chosen to be the savior of mankind.
The god, with whom we have to do, was once a mere man. But he, through good works, achieved godhood just as any good MORMON man can do. Once a man achieves such godhood, he becomes god with his god-wife over another planet. They procreate and produce spiritual children with which to populate that world.
Those who claim to be Christians outside of Mormonism will also enter heaven--but never the highest level. Only Mormons in good standing can do that. Most of us will barely squeak by and will occupy the very lowest levels of heaven. No nonMormon will ever attain godhood. But this should not offend US?
If this is what you believe, claim it openly. If this is not what you believe, claim so openly.
You cannot believe the above things and expect that we who hold only to the Christ portrayed in the Bible alone should accept you into the fold of Christianity. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If you believe the above things, you do not believe in our Jesus and you are not a Christian in the sense that that term has always been understood.
I have nothing to seek forgiveness from God for regarding these matters as someone suggested. As a true follower of Christ, I expect to be hated and misunderstood. Christ warned us of such things because He Himself was hated and misunderstood. That will not dissuade me. Why? Because I seek to win an argument or bash other people's religions? No! But because in the message of Christ and His salvation lies the only hope for lost sinners. I seek not to make someone a baptist, or a presbyterian or a methodist. I seek only to proclaim the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God of very God, eternally existent with the Father, and the only way of salvation for a lost world.
Again, repent and believe on the name of the true Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. There is no salvation in the Mormon Jesus.
Preterist
Fair is fair Preterist. If you want me to respond to your points, you're going to have to at least TRY to respond to mine. You haven't. I'll be waiting for your response.
Also, you can't have new revelation as embodied in the Creed and insist that there is no new revelation or need for new revelation. You are in contradiction to yourself. Are the Heavens closed or not? Can God reveal to man his will through the spirit of prophecy in these latter days as well as in ancient days or not?
The creed merely stated what was known to be written in the Bible. BTW, I'm sure you know that the term catholic means "universal" whereas the term catholic used by the church today is a doctrinal term.
It is possible for personal revelation and it does happen but as far as church-wide revelation, it is believed that God gave us what we need so there is no need for a wide spread occurance. Besides, the revelations given to Joseph Smith revealed much doctrine that differed from what was already in place. LDS see it as revelation that God gave to mankind recently as a result of apostasy, others see it as that which was not necessary, then or now. Where was the apostasy or the falling away? If there were no christians at the time Joseph Smith received the plates, that is one thing. There were, however, a good number of believers around when this event took place. So was this "new" revelation necessary?
Fair is fair Preterist. If you want me to respond to your points, you're going to have to at least TRY to respond to mine. You haven't. I'll be waiting for your response.
Thanks,
Thunder
godofthunder: I believe the burden of proof is on you, but I will respond. The reason I have not is that these issues have all been covered before and most Mormons have been taught our arguements and have been taught how to "refute" them. This is how it always plays out--I will give you the Scriptures and you will state that they do not teach what I say they teach. You will not, I predict, deal with the verses and texts I give you but will do an end around and come back with verses you think contradict my verses, yada, yada, yada. It always goes this way.
But as soon as I have time, I will recount it all again--as though you don't already know the arguments. Many, many Christians have already stated them. You really do not need me to spell them out for you. You have not clearly stated the support behind your beliefs and from where you get them.
You think it should satisfy us for you to simply say: "I believe in Jesus" or "I am a Christian just like you."
I continue to pray that you will come to know the real Jesus!
I am starting a new thread entitled "Who is the real Jesus?" I direct you there.
Preterist
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