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I remember asking some of my friends who belong to the LDS church, how they would feel if someone came along and stated that they had a modern-day revelation similar to what Joseph Smith said that he had. How would LDS members feel if someone today said that all of the so-called modern "christian" churches were wrong and that they now have the true, restored gospel because God had somehow enlightened them? Any feelings on this? My friends were pretty quiet about it afterwards.
I think it is the experience of Jesus of Nazareth all over again. If Jesus were reborn in this age and he began his ministry tomorrow, I am of the opinion that he would end up getting lynched and the strongest proponents advocating his death would be the leaders of Christian religions today.
Jesus of Nazareth did not come to the Jews with a message that they were doing a fine job, to keep up the good work and that he was going to go ahead and die for their sins. Jesus of Nazareth absolutely blasted the Jewish sects of his day. It is pure arrogance and stupidity to assume that he would treat modern day Christianity any differently than he treated Judaism from his day.
Of course nobody wants to hear "I'm right and you're wrong." And yet, any Christian who gets offended at hearing that sort of message needs to be careful. Christianity has been throwing that message in the faces of every other religion (including other Christians) for the last 2000 years, often accompanying their pious wisdom with violent retribution upon any who were unwilling to accept their truth.
I find one thing very amusing. If you read from the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, you repeatedly see all the other Chritian sects referred to as "so called Christians." The religious leaders of other Christian sects were the foremost proponents of driving the Mormons out of: New York, Ohio, Missouri and Illinois. The were the most vocal in calling for Joseph Smith to be arrested and they most certainly exercised their power and influence in getting Joseph Smith lynched. It was their influence that was the greatest driving force in expelling the Mormons from Illinois and it was their propaganda that send the US Army to Utah. The conclusion: The "Christians" proved the Mormons right. By their own actions, they had no right to call themselves followers of Christ.
Last edited by godofthunder; 01-24-2008 at 10:18 AM..
I remember asking some of my friends who belong to the LDS church, how they would feel if someone came along and stated that they had a modern-day revelation similar to what Joseph Smith said that he had. How would LDS members feel if someone today said that all of the so-called modern "christian" churches were wrong and that they now have the true, restored gospel because God had somehow enlightened them? Any feelings on this? My friends were pretty quiet about it afterwards.
This actually happens all the time--to Mormons that is. We have had many people leave the Church claiming revelation from God, saying that so and so is a fallen prophet and the church is not true anymore etc, etc. They start their own church and go their own way. We feel sad about it but there is nothing we can do.
In addition to this and much more commonly, people thump their Bibles and claim that Mormon theology is contrary to the Bible and that Mormons are going to hell and that Joseph Smith was a deceiver and a scoundral and that the word "Mormon" actually means "gates of Hell" and ... and ...and...it goes on and on and on. Most of the time we ignore this and go on. These people are in the minority. The vast majority of Chistians do not engage in this kind of bashing.
My efforts here are to answer some of the charges leveled at us and clarify what we believe. The thread is titled "what do Mormons really believe?"
I think what you are really driving at, Urban, is that it is offensive for Mormons to say that all other Churches are wrong or that God has told us that they are wrong. I think that is a legitimate complaint, but I would hasten to add that we don't think that others are going to hell because they don't believe like us. Futhermore we are not saying that other churches are "all wrong". In fact, other Christian churches are mostly right and share many common beliefs and values. Yes there are significant differences in some of the doctrines but as followers of Christ we should respect one anothers beliefs and be fair and open-minded even while holding fast to the things we know are right.
Good faithful Christians like yourself, Preterist, Twin and others are the sine qua non for a strong and vital Republic and the foundation of society and democracy in the United States. If we fight each other all the time and condemn one another to Hell, instead of standing fast and defending our common interests and what we know to be right, then our common adversary will win the day. In the United States there is a growing antipathy towards Christianity and Christian values, especially in academia, Hollywood, and in the media. We should unite to fight this instead of spending our efforts attacking one another. As the struggling colonists in America used to say, "If we don't hang together, we shall all hang separately."
godofthunder:"If you read from the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, you repeatedly see all the other Chritian sects referred to as "so called Christians.""
godofthunder:
I do not know of any passage in the Doctrine & Covenants that uses the term "so-called Chistians".
I'm proud to have that title and to know that you consider "Urban", Preterist, and others as "sine qua non"! The Bibles' main message "sine qua non" ---- "without which it could not be" to satisfy Gods demand to "be perfect". Thank you very much!
godofthunder:"If you read from the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, you repeatedly see all the other Chritian sects referred to as "so called Christians.""
godofthunder:
I do not know of any passage in the Doctrine & Covenants that uses the term "so-called Chistians".
It is possible that I was incorrectly understanding the context of the wording then.
I remember asking some of my friends who belong to the LDS church, how they would feel if someone came along and stated that they had a modern-day revelation similar to what Joseph Smith said that he had. How would LDS members feel if someone today said that all of the so-called modern "christian" churches were wrong and that they now have the true, restored gospel because God had somehow enlightened them? Any feelings on this? My friends were pretty quiet about it afterwards.
Also bear in mind, this has occurred repeatedly throughout Christian history. Joseph Smith was one of several different claimants to having received revelation from God within that same general time period in US History. The Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses are direct results of someone claiming to have received a similar revelation. Martin Luther also felt that he had been divinely inspired in his actions -- which resulted in the Lutheran Church and opened the door to much of the Protestant Reformation.
No doubt, your friend was being very polite and they may not have ever thought of this. But tell me, what Christian religion hasn't preached to all the world that they were right and every other religion was wrong?
I think what you are really driving at, Urban, is that it is offensive for Mormons to say that all other Churches are wrong or that God has told us that they are wrong. I think that is a legitimate complaint, but I would hasten to add that we don't think that others are going to hell because they don't believe like us.
Personally, I am not offended at the different beliefs of others and how they worship because God instilled the right of everyone to believe according to their own dictates. I know what the LDS church believes and how they worship since I was a member for a number of years so I guess it gives me a wider perspective. I also know that they are a very staunch group of people who strongly believe in what their Scriptures say. Many christians feel very strongly about the Bible too.
I don't think it's a matter of believing that others are going to hell based on whether or not they believe us (christians) but what the Bible says. Of course, if you are LDS, then you as a member see it differently. Naturally, one who believes in what the Bible says about eternal placement will wonder about the nature of a scripture that states something different. What I also have to wonder is will two doctrines that, on the surface look alike yet have many disimilarities, co-exist? I think it has to be one or the other so this is why we have our disagreements.
Does this make any sense? Hope I wasn't too wordy or ambiguous. I enjoy discussions like this and even though we probably won't agree, at least we can discuss things in a friendly manner!!
I don't think it's a matter of believing that others are going to hell based on whether or not they believe us (christians) but what the Bible says. Of course, if you are LDS, then you as a member see it differently. Naturally, one who believes in what the Bible says about eternal placement will wonder about the nature of a scripture that states something different.
There are so many directions that you could be intending to go with this, so please explain. What does the Bible say on the matter? From my reading of the Bible, I certainly do not find the Mormon view of Kingdoms of Glory outlined, but at the same time, the descriptions of Heaven and Hell are fairly broad, some are vague or make heavy use of symbolism. Frankly there is room for a lot more explanation about how they actually work.
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What I also have to wonder is will two doctrines that, on the surface look alike yet have many disimilarities, co-exist? I think it has to be one or the other so this is why we have our disagreements.
Can over 1,000 versions of Christianity co-exist in peace? Usually not, but hopefully we'll learn to do so.
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Does this make any sense? Hope I wasn't too wordy or ambiguous. I enjoy discussions like this and even though we probably won't agree, at least we can discuss things in a friendly manner!!
Glad to hear that the discussion is going to remain civil.
stycotl: It is not enough for you to simply say "Mormons believe in the Jesus of the Bible, whether you believe it or not" without telling us how you believe the Bible portrays Jesus? Please tell us who Jesus is if you would not mind and please tell us who your church says He is. Since the Bible is correct only insofar as it is correctly translated, according to LDS doctrine, what parts of the Bible concerning Jesus which mainstream Christian groups proclaim are not correctly translated (according to Mormonism).
The reason I did not get into an indepth and biblical exposition of the CHRISTIAN doctrine of the tri-unity (trinity) with zimbabwe is that I would use the parts of the Bible which Mormonism would claim to be incorrectly translated. What is the point. Unless we can agree of the true source of truth, how can we debate any of these things.
My biggest complaint against Mormons is their reluctance to spell out exactly what their church teaches. If you are going to use the terms of Christianity in a different way than they have commonly been used for centuries, please indicate when you are doing so.
Who is the God? Would you deny once and for all that He was ever a man?Please tell us and tell us where you get your teaching concerning Him. What is salvation according to Mormon doctrine and from where do Mormons get their understanding of it? Who is man? Most importantly, who is Jesus? Where was He before He came to this world? Who is man in relationship to Him? What is the possible future for a man who leads a holy life? Will you deny once and for all to everyone on this board that a man can attain godhood--that he can become a god of another planet and procreate with a mother god in order to occupy the physical bodies of children born on the planet over which he reigns?
Again, my problem is not and has never been with Mormonism. Mormonism has every right to exist in this country in freedom and without persecution. My problem is and has always been Mormonisms claim to Christianity. It is dishonest for LDS to use our terminology with their unique and unbiblical meanings. Considering the unique and nonbiblical teachings of the founders and leaders of Mormonism, why do Mormons find it strange and unacceptable that biblical Christians do not welcome them with open arms into Christendom? Mormonism, catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, and Christianity all have the right to protect the purity of their doctrines against those who would seek to change them or add to them.
You cannot claim to be a Christian apart from acceptance of the true nature of the Person behind that name. He is God of very God Who existed with God the Father throughout all of eternity past. He spoke our world and universe into being through His power and might. He humbled Himself and took on human flesh being the unique God-Man so that He could die for the sins of His people, His complete godhood giving that sacrifice the necessary appeasement and atonement no mere "good" and "simple" man could ever give it. Man is so much OTHER than the God of all things that there can be no comparison. He will never become God because he is OTHER than God and will always be OTHER than God. These are the basic, fundamental teachings of Christianity. They are essential to any claim to Christianity. You CANNOT claim to be a follower of Christ and deny the BIBLICAL teaching of the Trinity. This is an ESSENTIAL doctrine of Christianity. If you do not believe that Christ is wholly God from eternity past, you do NOT know the Christ of the Bible and you cannot rightfully claim the title Christian in the sense it is and has been commonly understood throughout the centuries.
Be Mormon if that is what you choose. I will not hate you or be unfriendly toward you. But do not seek to be that which you are not. That is all we are asking. We will not claim to be Mormon by distorting your doctrines; you should not claim to be Christian by distorting ours.
Let us stop using the same terminology without first spelling out exactly what we mean by the terms we use.
ps: The plan of salvation has ALWAYS been with us, although at times suppressed by the ignorance and evil designs of men. God has ALWAYS had His remnant. Joseph Smith restored nothing.
Preterist
wow. gone for a few days and all of a sudden i have a lot of catching up to do.
preterist.
mormons argue against the whole christian-not-christian thing because we see that you are telling us that we don't believe in Christ. that is the reason it is of importance to us. Christ is THE head of the church. there is no other. prophets, bishops, teachers, etc all come after.
correct me if i am wrong, but i seem to see two different reasons commonly used as to why mormons are not christians: faith vs. works, and the divinity of Christ.
i suppose that if you decide that my Christ is different than your Christ, that is your own liberty, and your own opinion. i can accept that. it is irksome that you feel the need to bring it up like an assault all of the time.
i believe in Christ. i believe in the Christ of the New Testament, the same being as Jehovah of the Old Testament. i know that many of you are shaking your heads now. but it it true. i believe in the same being.
the scriptures have been translated and interpreted so many times by so many people that no one can agree on who Christ is and what He is. even in the Nicene council, they could barely agree on a definition of what God was.
i believe that Jesus is the Son of God. i have read a lot of misconceptions about mormon religion, and one of those assumes that because we believe that man become like unto God, that Jesus is somehow just a cool dude according to 'real' mormon belief. that is not the case. Jesus was created and chosen from the very beginning. remember when Jehovah told Jeremiah that he had been chosen even before he was born? If jeremiah, then all the more so Christ. i promise you that Christ was set apart to be our Savior before any of us even existed. that is the stance that the mormon church takes.
we believe that God the Father held a council in heaven, where lucifer volunteered to come down here and make us follow God's plan. his plan was rejected in favor of the perfect plan. who came up with the perfect plan?
why Christ, of course. He and the Father were one.
lucifer rebelled, became the devil, turned a third of the hosts of heaven, and you all know the rest.
but the point is in the council. just because God held a council does not mean that He did not know what was going to happen, or should happen. God already knew the perfect route, the route of a Savior. that was what Christ had been created for, in the very beginning. Christ played His role perfectly. He was given every chance to back out, as would only be just. He didn't back out, He, God's only begotten Son, played His role perfectly, and with His perfect existence and then His death and resurrection, He atoned for our sins.
it is only through faith in the savior that we can be saved. mormons do believe that. there is no other way to find salvation and exaltation.
faith comes in different quantities. i certainly don't have the faith that moses or joseph smith had before they were called as prophets. i hope one day to get there. faith grows (or should, depending on our choices) throughout our lives.
only the minutest amount of faith is required for salvation. there is salvation to be found then even for murderers and liars, provided that they believe that Christ died for them. mormons believe in three degrees of glory, and the telestial, the glory of the stars, is where the dishonorable will go, the liars, the adulterers, the murderers. some might equate that to hell, though to do so is erroneous. the telestial kingdom is still a degree of glory, is still a reward of salvation that is greater than what would await a soul had Christ never atoned for our sins.
however, there are greater glories, greater degrees of salvation. we said that there are different degrees of faith. we also said that faith grows throughout our lives. a man cannot be saved in ignorance. knowledge of the truth sets us free. why? because the more truth we have, the greater our faith, and the greater our relationship with God.
throughout our lives, if we are lucky, we hear of Christ. we have the opportunity to acquire faith in that knowledge. but that knowledge is not yet perfect, therefore neither is our faith. but as we live, we make choices. God judges us based on the knowledge that we have (parable of the talents). that is why the heathen nations (those who never knew Christ) will still have the opportunity to learn of Him, and to accept His sacrifice. so, with our little bit of fledgling faith, we make choices. when we follow the Spirit and make correct choices, we are blessed with more of a relationship with that Spirit, and that leads to more faith. it is science. mathematic.
throughout our lives, we have the opportunity to develop a much stronger faith than what we started with. again, that requires choices. it requires that we strive to better ourselves. that is why God created commandments, rules, written in the scriptures. they are not arbitrary. they are there to help us increase our faith, and therefore our proximity to the Lord.
i do not have to obey the commandments if i choose not to. but in so choosing, i limit the amount of faith-promoting experiences that i will be exposed to, and the choices for good that i can make. i limit my own proximity to and understanding of the Lord. with less truth in my life, i have the opposite of freedom. i have spiritual bondage (har har har. keep your jokes to yourselves...). i have a lessened relationship with Christ. and what that menas in the eternities, is that i will not be the kind of person that will feel comfortable in the direct presence of God. i will find, sadly enough, the telestial or the terrestrial kingdom more comfortable, more bearable than i would the celestial, the highest degree of glory. it is said that the sinners will wish that the mountains themselves would fall upon them to hide them and their imperfections from the Lord when He coems again. the lesser kindgoms are the eternal manifestations of wanting to be far from the Lord. it is based off of choices that we make in life, choices that turn us into the kind of people that we are now, that we are becoming.
that is why powerful faith is not just a one-time assertion that Christ is our Savior. again, it can be merely that, for a lessened relationship with God for the rest of eternity.
so, faith vs works. definitely faith. i cannot *make* my way to heaven at all. only through faith in Christ.
and Christ, my Savior, the Son of God, the divine being who was set up before the foundation of the world to die for my sins.
that is my testimony. questions? comments? i'll be around till my next round of tests again...
btw, thanks for the patience with my long posts. you guys are cool. aaron out.
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