What do Mormons really believe? Let's discuss Mormonism!!! (tradition, myth, Deuteronomy)
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The dictionary definition for Trinity/Tri-Unity comes from a selection I happened to find online. As to whether it fully explains what Preterist or others are using as their definition is unknown to me. I have found that trying to explain God is more than what our minds can comprehend as a result of His Majesty, Glory and Holiness. Any dictionary definition can be viewed as mans feeble attempt to explain Him in our very limited terms.
Thank you, Urban. I take it that you, Twin, and Preterist are all pretty much on the same page. I was confused because P- quibbled over my question regarding the Godhead being the same person. I think she meant that the Godhead is of one substance which is manifest in different ways or through different people. Correct?
If that is correct, who or what is God now? Does He look like Jesus or is He without form? What is the nature of God at this time? Physically?
Coolcats,
Personally, a nerve got struck when the accusations started flying when you (and/or others) say we are "defining terms or telling you what LDS believes".
It was said that "we" subsitute terms, yes we do! We subsitute the historical, Biblical terms and meanings back into the language. That was the purpose of the dictionary, it was to show (as is understood) the usage of terms as confessed and written by Mormons. If that dictionary isn't accurate, then instead of pooh-poohing it, submit your own---- using documented sources that can be considered offical. I agree, I don't want to speak for you.
When Mormons regard Jesus in the following ways:
(1) As the first spirit child of Heavenly Father.
(2) As Jehovah.
(3) As the only begotten Son. you believe he is the only Heavenly Father physically begat on this earth.
(4) As the Savior. Not a Savior who did everything for mankind but rather one -
----(a) who conquered physical death for mankind,
----(b) who paid our debt and is patient with us as we pay him back in full,
----(c) who served as our example, showing us what we have to do to save ourselves....... Is a deep contrast to what the Bible teaches and also from what historically the Non-LDS Christian believed. The difference between LDS and Biblical Teaching must be voiced.
It is presumptious to think that any scripture quoted from Mormons is not subject to error. Any counter point is quickly labeled "private interpretation" or worse about those who dare to disagree with Mormons.
you mean that the difference between lds and man's interpretation of biblical teachings must be voiced. and by the above reasonong, it is presumptuous of anyone else to believe that their interpretation would be infallible.
what it comes down to is the fact that whoever is arguing their point thinks that they are right. so both sides cling to their truth and ignore whatever conflicting info the other side brings up. if said party has already sincerely considered other options and is not against further sincere consideration, then more power to them. but if they are just doing it out of an ignorant desire to be right, then they are already wrong, whether tey preach the truth or not.
the mormons teach that the reformationist sects were 100% necessary for the restoration of Christ's priesthood and prophets. Luther, Calvin, and the others were all spiritual pioneers who were directly inspired by the Holy Ghost. however, they still did not possess all of God's Plan of Salvation because it was not on the earth at that time. so, while luther was a servant of God, he was not the one who was preordained to bring about the actual restoration of the gospel. he was however, extremely instrumental in bringing the world into preparation for said restoration. I'm rhyming...
mormons do not believe that other faiths are damned to hell for not being mormon. when i was a missionary in virginia and argentina, i was not out trying to save the 'ignorant people fo the world from their follies and the hellfire that awaited them.' i was simply trying to share the restored parts of the gospel that they did not have. i was sharing the happiness and the satisfaction that i receive as i follow Christ, yes the Christ of the Bible, whether you believe it or not.
mormons do not tell people that they are going to hell just because the Christ that they believe in was white, black, or yellow, or had purple hair, or wore a nose ring. my church does not deny others the faith that they have in a trinity-inspired Godhead, despite the fact that we believe it is false.
mormons believe that a human being is saved by grace, through the atonement of our Savior, Jesus Christ. One must have faith in Christ in order to receive that salvation however, and faith is not merely a state of mind. it is a state of being. i do not think one with Christ. I become one with Christ.
mormons believe that a man cannot be saved in ignorance. it is necessary for everyone to come to a knowledge of their Savior, otherwise there could be no faith in, or acceptance of that Savior. the more truth we can find in this life, the better prepared we will be to truly know Christ. as the new testament says, truth is liberating (paraphrased obviously).
therefore it is our job, as believers of the Son of God, to go out and preach Him to our brethren. many will not accept. that is their choice, and i am unqualified to judge them. i cannot know what circumstances in their lives prevent them from accepting our message, and only God can judge. He has already promised to be merciful in His judgements of the heathens (which does not mean stupid and uncivilized as some may take it, but those unacquainted with the truth for whatever reasons). they will be taught before their judgement and will recieve the same chance to accept or deny.
as to the Christ that the mormons believe in: there is only one Christ. and the same scriptures that the followers of the nicene creed use to pronounce God as a being of three minds, alludes to a trio of beings of united purpose. otherwise Christ would not ask us to become one with Him, as He is one with the Father. i am not going to be absorbed into the body of my Savior upon accepting His gospel.
there is obviously a misconception here. many people read the same book, which--generally--states the same thing. that is the reason why man was commanded not to interpret the words of the prophets themselves, but that God would send prophets to teach them what the Lord has laid forth. that is not to say that man should not study and ponder this glorious gospel himself; indeed, the invention of the printing press made truth availible on an unprecedented level to the common man. it is meant that we should study, ponder, pray, sincerely search, and then listen to those who were called of Christ to lead us to Him.
the scriptures teach us how to separate the false prophets from the true prophets. there would be no need for such a lesson were there not prophets in the first place.
which brings about the point of continued revelation, one of the cornerstones of mormon faith...
the mormons teach that the reformationist sects were 100% necessary for the restoration of Christ's priesthood and prophets. Luther, Calvin, and the others were all spiritual pioneers who were directly inspired by the Holy Ghost. however, they still did not possess all of God's Plan of Salvation because it was not on the earth at that time. so, while luther was a servant of God, he was not the one who was preordained to bring about the actual restoration of the gospel. he was however, extremely instrumental in bringing the world into preparation for said restoration. I'm rhyming...
mormons do not believe that other faiths are damned to hell for not being mormon. when i was a missionary in virginia and argentina, i was not out trying to save the 'ignorant people fo the world from their follies and the hellfire that awaited them.' i was simply trying to share the restored parts of the gospel that they did not have. i was sharing the happiness and the satisfaction that i receive as i follow Christ, yes the Christ of the Bible, whether you believe it or not.
mormons do not tell people that they are going to hell just because the Christ that they believe in was white, black, or yellow, or had purple hair, or wore a nose ring. my church does not deny others the faith that they have in a trinity-inspired Godhead, despite the fact that we believe it is false.
mormons believe that a human being is saved by grace, through the atonement of our Savior, Jesus Christ. One must have faith in Christ in order to receive that salvation however, and faith is not merely a state of mind. it is a state of being. i do not think one with Christ. I become one with Christ.
mormons believe that a man cannot be saved in ignorance. it is necessary for everyone to come to a knowledge of their Savior, otherwise there could be no faith in, or acceptance of that Savior. the more truth we can find in this life, the better prepared we will be to truly know Christ. as the new testament says, truth is liberating (paraphrased obviously).
therefore it is our job, as believers of the Son of God, to go out and preach Him to our brethren. many will not accept. that is their choice, and i am unqualified to judge them. i cannot know what circumstances in their lives prevent them from accepting our message, and only God can judge. He has already promised to be merciful in His judgements of the heathens (which does not mean stupid and uncivilized as some may take it, but those unacquainted with the truth for whatever reasons). they will be taught before their judgement and will recieve the same chance to accept or deny.
as to the Christ that the mormons believe in: there is only one Christ. and the same scriptures that the followers of the nicene creed use to pronounce God as a being of three minds, alludes to a trio of beings of united purpose. otherwise Christ would not ask us to become one with Him, as He is one with the Father. i am not going to be absorbed into the body of my Savior upon accepting His gospel.
there is obviously a misconception here. many people read the same book, which--generally--states the same thing. that is the reason why man was commanded not to interpret the words of the prophets themselves, but that God would send prophets to teach them what the Lord has laid forth. that is not to say that man should not study and ponder this glorious gospel himself; indeed, the invention of the printing press made truth availible on an unprecedented level to the common man. it is meant that we should study, ponder, pray, sincerely search, and then listen to those who were called of Christ to lead us to Him.
the scriptures teach us how to separate the false prophets from the true prophets. there would be no need for such a lesson were there not prophets in the first place.
which brings about the point of continued revelation, one of the cornerstones of mormon faith...
stycotl: It is not enough for you to simply say "Mormons believe in the Jesus of the Bible, whether you believe it or not" without telling us how you believe the Bible portrays Jesus? Please tell us who Jesus is if you would not mind and please tell us who your church says He is. Since the Bible is correct only insofar as it is correctly translated, according to LDS doctrine, what parts of the Bible concerning Jesus which mainstream Christian groups proclaim are not correctly translated (according to Mormonism).
The reason I did not get into an indepth and biblical exposition of the CHRISTIAN doctrine of the tri-unity (trinity) with zimbabwe is that I would use the parts of the Bible which Mormonism would claim to be incorrectly translated. What is the point. Unless we can agree of the true source of truth, how can we debate any of these things.
My biggest complaint against Mormons is their reluctance to spell out exactly what their church teaches. If you are going to use the terms of Christianity in a different way than they have commonly been used for centuries, please indicate when you are doing so.
Who is the God? Would you deny once and for all that He was ever a man?Please tell us and tell us where you get your teaching concerning Him. What is salvation according to Mormon doctrine and from where do Mormons get their understanding of it? Who is man? Most importantly, who is Jesus? Where was He before He came to this world? Who is man in relationship to Him? What is the possible future for a man who leads a holy life? Will you deny once and for all to everyone on this board that a man can attain godhood--that he can become a god of another planet and procreate with a mother god in order to occupy the physical bodies of children born on the planet over which he reigns?
Again, my problem is not and has never been with Mormonism. Mormonism has every right to exist in this country in freedom and without persecution. My problem is and has always been Mormonisms claim to Christianity. It is dishonest for LDS to use our terminology with their unique and unbiblical meanings. Considering the unique and nonbiblical teachings of the founders and leaders of Mormonism, why do Mormons find it strange and unacceptable that biblical Christians do not welcome them with open arms into Christendom? Mormonism, catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, and Christianity all have the right to protect the purity of their doctrines against those who would seek to change them or add to them.
You cannot claim to be a Christian apart from acceptance of the true nature of the Person behind that name. He is God of very God Who existed with God the Father throughout all of eternity past. He spoke our world and universe into being through His power and might. He humbled Himself and took on human flesh being the unique God-Man so that He could die for the sins of His people, His complete godhood giving that sacrifice the necessary appeasement and atonement no mere "good" and "simple" man could ever give it. Man is so much OTHER than the God of all things that there can be no comparison. He will never become God because he is OTHER than God and will always be OTHER than God. These are the basic, fundamental teachings of Christianity. They are essential to any claim to Christianity. You CANNOT claim to be a follower of Christ and deny the BIBLICAL teaching of the Trinity. This is an ESSENTIAL doctrine of Christianity. If you do not believe that Christ is wholly God from eternity past, you do NOT know the Christ of the Bible and you cannot rightfully claim the title Christian in the sense it is and has been commonly understood throughout the centuries.
Be Mormon if that is what you choose. I will not hate you or be unfriendly toward you. But do not seek to be that which you are not. That is all we are asking. We will not claim to be Mormon by distorting your doctrines; you should not claim to be Christian by distorting ours.
Let us stop using the same terminology without first spelling out exactly what we mean by the terms we use.
ps: The plan of salvation has ALWAYS been with us, although at times suppressed by the ignorance and evil designs of men. God has ALWAYS had His remnant. Joseph Smith restored nothing.
I was hoping that Twin or you would answer my question regarding the nature of God. It would be helpful before I present the Church's position insofar as I understand it.
You have asked many questions. Some are very good. I suspect that you already know the answers to those questions since your husband is a former Mormon. So I am willing to do my best but I hold no illusion that I am going to enlighten you.
Twin:
I feel like I owe you an apology for accusing you of misrepresenting the doctrines of the LDS church. I feel you probably did it out of lack of full understanding of what we believe. I appreciate you sharing your understanding of the Godhead.
The reason I did not get into an indepth and biblical exposition of the CHRISTIAN doctrine of the tri-unity (trinity) with zimbabwe is that I would use the parts of the Bible which Mormonism would claim to be incorrectly translated. What is the point. Unless we can agree of the true source of truth, how can we debate any of these things.
My biggest complaint against Mormons is their reluctance to spell out exactly what their church teaches. If you are going to use the terms of Christianity in a different way than they have commonly been used for centuries, please indicate when you are doing so.
Preterist
Preterist:
Contrary to what you may believe we do not fall back on the position of the Bible being "mistranslated" every time we run across an inconvenient passage of scripture.
Furthermore, we are not unique in our reservations regarding the translational accuracy of the Bible. Others have had concerns as well. However, I wish to emphasize that translational errors are the exception not the rule. The Bible, especially given the circumstances of the troubled world within it was produced, is truly a miracle and a gift from God.
Church leader Elder Ballard recently spoke concerning the Bible:
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable” (2 Timothy 3:16). We love the Bible and other scriptures. That may be surprising to some who may not be aware of our belief in the Bible as the revealed word of God. It is one of the pillars of our faith, a powerful witness of the Savior and of Christ’s ongoing influence in the lives of those who worship and follow Him. The more we read and study the Bible and its teachings, the more clearly we see the doctrinal underpinnings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. We tend to love the scriptures that we spend time with. We may need to balance our study in order to love and understand all scripture.
I think the bee in your bonnet, Presterist, is something far more substantial then a mild reservation regarding biblical translation. I think it is that we accept other scripture in addition to the Bible.
You've complained that Mormons will not spell out exactly what we believe. I think some complaints about Mormons may be justified but not that one. We are more than willing to explain our beliefs to anyone that will listen. We are, however, reluctant to get into arguements about it, believing that contention is not of the Lord.
You have also complained that we use terminology different than mainstream Christians. You have a valid point there. It is not because we intend to muddy the waters, but it is because we are not educated in the language you use--such as "Tri-unity", "man-God", etc. That is why I have tried to understand exactly what you were saying before I attempt to explain the doctrines of the LDS church. We must be patient with one another if we are going to come to a real understanding.
I must confess,however, that I think some of your questions are not intended to come to an understanding, but rather embarras, and throw rhetorical mud on the Church. In your questions you use language that we don't use to characterize doctrines of the church. To me it seems sarcasitc and cynical.
I feel like I owe you an apology for accusing you of misrepresenting the doctrines of the LDS church. I feel you probably did it out of lack of full understanding of what we believe. I appreciate you sharing your understanding of the Godhead.
Zimbabwe,
I accept your apology. I try to state the LDS doctrines based on published statements and what is found in, as you termed "the pillers of faith", as accurately as possible. For example:
post #60 The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved,by obedience to the lawsand ordinances of the Gospel.
Yes, I agree with you that you honestly believe that " I feel you [twin] probably did it out of lack of full understanding of what we believe." I can admit, that I don't fully understand. Do I fully know what laws are considered required (some vs all) for all mankind to be saved..... no. But with the same honesty, I feel that many Mormons do not fully understand what the LDS Church offically teaches either.
But (if the artical of faith of LDS that all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws.... is to be considered true) when compared to the Bible-----
— but the righteouswilllive by his faith -Habakkuk 2:4[written @700bc]
— For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faithfrom first to last, just as it is written: "The righteouswilllive by faith." Romans 1:17
— Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteouswilllive by faith." Galations 3:11
— But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." Hebrews 10:38
— But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. Romans 3:21
there will be those who will come to one of the following conclusion:
that the Bible verse written @700 bc by the Prophet Habakkuk revealed by Jehovah, quoted by Paul, conflicts the Artical of Faith.
How one reacts to this is based on what ultimatly will be considered THE truth, IMO God doesn't mislead his followers for some 2500yrs (time between Prophet Habakkuk and JS revelations) and that God reveals two opposing views for salvation... A God that is the same yesterday, today, and forever....
I also appreciate your sharing your beliefs. Please tell me if post #60 is accurate...
Last edited by twin.spin; 01-21-2008 at 08:21 PM..
Zimbabwe,
I accept your apology. I try to state the LDS doctrines based on published statements and what is found in, as you termed "the pillers of faith", as accurately as possible. For example:
post #60 The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved,by obedience to the lawsand ordinances of the Gospel.
Yes, I agree with you that you honestly believe that " I feel you [twin] probably did it out of lack of full understanding of what we believe." I can admit, that I don't fully understand. Do I fully know what laws are considered required (some vs all) for all mankind to be saved..... no. But with the same honesty, I feel that many Mormons do not fully understand what the LDS Church offically teaches either.
But (if the artical of faith of LDS that all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws.... is to be considered true) when compared to the Bible-----
— but the righteouswilllive by his faith -Habakkuk 2:4[written @700bc]
— For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faithfrom first to last, just as it is written: "The righteouswilllive by faith." Romans 1:17
— Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteouswilllive by faith." Galations 3:11
— But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." Hebrews 10:38
— But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. Romans 3:21
there will be those who will come to one of the following conclusion:
that the Bible verse written @700 bc by the Prophet Habakkuk revealed by Jehovah, quoted by Paul, conflicts the Artical of Faith.
How one reacts to this is based on what ultimatly will be considered THE truth, IMO God doesn't mislead his followers for some 2500yrs (time between Prophet Habakkuk and JS revelations).
I also appreciate your sharing your beliefs. Please tell me if post #60 is accurate...
Twin, how do you think people become righteous? It is not through doing whatever we want. It's through obedience to the law. If faith was the only requirement, I could have all the faith in the world and routinely break the Commandments. Obedience to God's laws is the mark of the righteous. Those who are obedient then grow in faith.
Sergeant,
then post #60 is an accurate statement of Articles of Faith?
If I were to tell you how not how I think people become righteous, (keeping in mind the balance of routinely breaking the commandments concern you have (and rightly so) and by faith alone), but soley from what God has said (from the Bible) how people become righteous in his sight..... would that be offensive?
Last edited by twin.spin; 01-21-2008 at 09:16 PM..
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