Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Regarding the nature of God, Mormons believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate and distinct individuals. We give as Biblical evidence of that most of the New Testament. Jesus prays to His Father, speaks of His Father in the third person, and finally asks, "My God, my God , why hast thou forsaken me?", as He hung on the cross.
At His baptism, all three members of the Godhead were manifest: the Father's voice from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."; the Holy Ghost descending in the form of a dove; and Jesus Himself in the water with John the Baptist.
We see another manifestation of the distinct nature of Jesus and His Father on the mount of transfiguration.
Most importantly, the young Joseph Smith, not yet 15 years of age, saw both Jesus and Heavenly Father in the grove of trees where he went to pray early in the spring of 1820.
From his own words:
After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God... I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me... When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
Joseph Smith once said if one could gaze into yonder heavens for just 5 minutes one would know more about the place than all the books ever written on the subject.
Modern day revelation is the key to our understanding of the nature of God, not the creeds of men.
My condolences regarding the death of the leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Gordon Hinckley. Lived to the age of 97 apparently. Quite a long life.
Perhaps there is a difference here. We have a pretty good idea who is saved and who is not, for the most part. God however, knows already who will not make it and that is His and only His knowledge. Since we do not know, we are to go out and preach His Word regardless and leave the rest to Him. What do you think, does that make any sense?
Not only does this make sense, its what Jesus commanded. I'm glad that results are not what Jesus is looking for, just those to speak it. If it were so, then I would be most discouraged. For it is not me or you or Preterist who is being rejected, but the one who has sent us....Jesus. All that we can do is to pray that the Holy Spirit will turn the hearts of the cold before God hardens their hearts as like He did with Pharaoh.
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Romans 10:3
Last edited by twin.spin; 01-28-2008 at 09:27 AM..
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
Most importantly, the young Joseph Smith, not yet 15 years of age, saw both Jesus and Heavenly Father in the grove of trees where he went to pray early in the spring of 1820.
zimbabwe, as you know, this is a major point of contention and disagreement between christians and mormons. Because God is the same as He was yesterday, today and forever, why would He change and show Himself to Joseph Smith?
I know a lot of people maintain that it was His glory that Moses saw on the mount and that those were anthromorphic(?) manifestations of Himself that appeared to others in various sections of the Bible. God Himself stated in Exodus 33:20 that no one can see His face and live. So I guess the debate will rage on as a result of this and other aspects of the LDS doctrine.
godofthunder: Since you claim to be a fellow Christian, I do not understand why you find fault with my desire to win others to Christ.
I have several family members that became a part of their religion. At first I responded like most Christians would – trying desperately to save their souls. Now I happen to pride myself on being an open minded and fair person, so I researched their faith EXTENSIVELY. I also did a lot of research to see if there is any precedent for their claims regarding the Nature of God – one of the biggest bones of contention the rest of Christianity has with them.
The conclusion I came to is this: Either the Catholic Church is only true Church or the Trinitarian concept of God is at least questionable. In looking it over repeatedly, I find that Trinitarianism and Arianism (three separate but absolutely united beings) are both equally possible based upon the Biblical text.
Frankly, the idea of addiontal scriptures never offended me because I had come to the conclusion a long time ago that – contrary to unfounded Christian traditionalism – there is no basis for claiming that further scripture could never happen. I just happen to not agree that what they have had “revealed” to them is actually scripture.
But the final straw – when my brother and sister spoke/speak of Christ, the Spirit of God is there just as strongly as any Christian you ever heard speak of Christ and their reliance upon him. That is all I needed to know. If the Spirit of God was with them, then despite my conclusions that some of their beliefs are severely misguided, they are still members of the same greater community of Christ. The Spirit whispered to my soul that I had come to the right conclusion. Their sins are forgiven them by the same Jesus Christ as the rest of us. The ongoing debates claiming that they worship a “different Jesus” were never really true – or at the very least, it does not appear to matter enough to God that we accept the correct theory about Him. God hears the Mormon’s prayers. God forgives their sins through the Blood of Jesus Christ. I do not worry about the fate of their souls anymore. That is my own experience.
[quote]SINCE I believe that the only way of salvation is through the grace of God only, why do some find it so difficult that I would be concerned about those I believe to be outside of His grace? SINCE I believe in Hell and that those outside of Christ are destined to go there, why do some find it so difficult to believe that I am truly concerned about those I believe are headed there?
Should I not behave in a way consistent with my beliefs? Would anyone find fault if I warned people driving along a road that the bridge was out up ahead? Would anyone object to my warning and say, "you are mean-spirited and judgmental. We don't believe the bridge is out up ahead so you shouldn't try to make us believe it is!" [/quote]
I can tell you one thing for certain. If you’re concerned for the fate of their souls, attacking their beliefs will do you no good. It is the nature of all humankind to react defensively when we feel we are being attacked. You have to ask yourself this: If God is so willing to overlook and forgive all the many differences between the many denominations and believes throughout Christianity, why not the Mormons? What is the key that damns them to Hell while the rest are bound for heaven? Where is the line that a person claiming to trust in Christ Jesus must cross in order to be ignored and damned by an infinitely merciful God who they trusted in (in their own way) throughout their entire lives?
[quote]I am not a baptist although I agree with some of the baptist doctrines and I accept the creeds insofar as they align with the Word of God. I have great disagreements with the baptist doctrines of last things or eschatology. Their premillennial, pre-tribulational dispensationalism is gravely lacking in biblical support. I would align myself with some of the reformed groups, but sadly, most of them believe in infant baptism. There are others, such as the Methodist, who believe that one can lose his salvation and I DO BELIEVE in once saved, always saved.
There are many here who believe that I simply parrot what I have been told and have no biblical support for my beliefs. My reluctance to be denominationalized refutes that. Perhaps you would agree that there are many--far too many--who sit in their pews on Sunday mornings and take in everything their pastors tell them without question because it is easier than doing the hard work necessary to understand God's Word for one's self. I believe there are many Mormons in similar situations. The bottomline is: what saith the Scriptures? No one should believe anything unless and until he can prove it from the Word of God. And where there are disagreements among Christians, these disagreements should be boldly addressed and worked out as much as possible. The Church has not done that. We are content to sit in our little denominational groups without often understanding why. We are content to let this fracturing of the Church exist and continue--we agree to disagree! But IF we hold the Bible to be God's Word to us, we cannot be content to agree to disagree else we make the Scriptures of no value and no effect. In any specific area, there cannot be a multitude of truths. There are absolutes in science. There are absolutes in math. And there are absolutes in spiritual matters. It is not wrong to contend against someone who says two plus two equals five. It is not wrong to contend with someone who insists that the chemical compound H2O makes table salt. And it is not wrong to state that one becomes a child of God by believing in Christ, born "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12, 13).[/quote]
The main problem I’m seeing with your entire debate is – it is in fact the preferred attack strategy of the Baptist faith. It also pits the world of the Baptist doctrines and “Born Again Christianity” against Mormonism. By doing that, you risk invalidating ALL of Christianity that does not accept these theories. So if you want to tell the world why “Mormons are not Christians” you need come up with a much broader definition of “what is a Christian?”
Such research as it appears that you have made may requires research of only BIASED sources. But research that only looks to one side of the story is invalid for any true study of anything. If you have not looked at a spiritual matter from all sides with a completely open mind, and then taken the matter to God, then you are leaving yourself open to “only hearing what you want to hear” and not the answers from God.
Another flaw to your entire approach: You do not respond to their points thoroughly when the Mormons bring them up. It gives off the impression that you are willing to speak but completely unwilling to listen. Such an approach is doomed to certain failure. In my experience, the Mormons (especially the sort who would post on this forum) tend to do a lot of research on things. It just isn’t convincing to them to say, “This is the way it is” or “This is what Christians have always believed” or anything like that. You’d have to discuss things on the same level with some very thorough historical research. You also must respond to them in a respectful and loving manner or you’re going to get absolutely nowhere.
[quote]It is still my firm contention that it was this inexcusable fracturing that inn the church that we still witness today that opened the door for Joseph Smith to promote his claim that all the sects were completely truthless and accursed of God. It is not only Mormons who rightfully criticize these manmade barriers, but all of the unbelieving world looks on with contempt and criticism. We are more proud to be a Baptist, or a Methodist, or a Presbyterian, or a Lutheran than we are to be Christian and we are eager to feud over distinctives founded not in the Word of God but in the traditions of men. Mormons themselves are not above these distinctives. In order to come together in any way, we must establish the source of our truth. If the Bible is the Word of God only insofar as it is translated correctly (according to Mormonism), what basis is there for debate? [/quote]
Freeing onself from what is a man-made myth: “The Bible is God only word and it is perfect.” Now that takes a lot of courage. We can all agree that the Bible and the books contained in it were miraculously preserved. But I always have and always will question the idea that there was never anything else written by the inspiration of God. I also can’t find any part of the Bible, if correctly understood, that teaches that there is never going to be any written revelation again. Besides all that, it just doesn’t seem reasonable to me and it never has.
Quote:
I will no longer post here. I will not deny that it is sometimes hurtful to be misunderstood and demonized when trying to share the love of Christ to those I feel are in need of hearing. But that is not why I am departing. There is really nothing more to say, and I do not wish to engender more ill feelings concerning my motives and perhaps do more harm to the cause of Christ than good.
And this is for the best for now. If you are so sure that they are in need of saving, you need to very seriously annalyze your approach. What you have come with thusfar only lends itself to hostility and anger.
Quote:
I am working on a new thread which I hope to post shortly regarding the biblical nature and work of Christ. I seek to be nondenominational and biblical and not influenced by creeds and the traditions of men in this endeavor. I would welcome your input, godofthunder! I apologize for anything that might have been perceived as demeaning or insulting. Please forgive me if I have been out of line in that regard. It was not my intent.
Quote:
I hope to "see" you on my thread!
Preterist
Feel free to ask me questions anytime you feel the need for a different perspective on any matter. I try to look at all of them, if I can help it.
Again, I apologize if my posts have been offensive in any way.
Incidently, the unicode seems screwed up on my post this time.
zimbabwe, as you know, this is a major point of contention and disagreement between christians and mormons.
Yes, but it's still what Latter Day Saints believe. It matters not whether Protestant or Catholic Christians agree with them. Protestant denominations don't agree with each other, so disagreement shouldn't be an issue.
zimbabwe, as you know, this is a major point of contention and disagreement between christians and mormons. Because God is the same as He was yesterday, today and forever, why would He change and show Himself to Joseph Smith?
I know a lot of people maintain that it was His glory that Moses saw on the mount and that those were anthromorphic(?) manifestations of Himself that appeared to others in various sections of the Bible. God Himself stated in Exodus 33:20 that no one can see His face and live. So I guess the debate will rage on as a result of this and other aspects of the LDS doctrine.
The answer is that He did not change himself. As I have quoted on this thread before, Jesus was resurrected with an immortal body. From Luke 24:36-40
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
This is in complete harmony with what Joseph Smith claimed to have seen.
Protestant denominations don't agree with each other, so disagreement shouldn't be an issue.
Shouldn't be but unfortunately, it is and they are.
Quote:
This is in complete harmony with what Joseph Smith claimed to have seen.
The point I was trying to make is that most christians hold that man cannot look upon God Himself and live as per the verse in Exodus. That's all I was trying to say regarding the vision.
Knowing and understanding the true nature of God is not just an academic exersize but is fundamental to our faith.
In His great intercessory prayer found in the 17th chapter of John Jesus said "And this is life eternal to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."
That is strong language and the Lord would not have said such a thing if it was impossible to understand the true nature of God.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
