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Hi Eusebius! I see you've still got that photo of yourself up...wow, that dog sure is cute!
On this subject of death, I can't find anything in scripture that shows a spirit dying at death. Death is such an inaccurate word. Separated is maybe better. God told Adam he would die if he ate of the tree, but actually what happened was that he was separated in spirit from communion with God, and a barrier was set up, where Adam's own guilt caused him to hide from God. So God didn't change in this event, and He showed no anger from it. It was the man that changed. And why would God be angry? He knew what was coming, and actually, He set the whole event up.
Yes, God set up the whole event. I agree with you on that. Not many know about that.
God told Abraham "to die you shall be dying." It is a process of death operating in Adam till the day He died. God later explained what it meant "to die shall you be dying" when He said this:
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till your return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning.
God was still communicating with them as evidenced with the conversation after Cain killed Abel.
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So what I see happening at that time, is that Adam's will crossed God's direct command. Before the fall, God communed with Adam in spirit, and Adam's will and body followed the process. When Adam decided consciously to disobey God, Adam placed his own will above God's will, and there was a displacement in the order of things. Normally, the spirit listened to God, was witnessed to and followed by the will (or soul), and the body also followed this order. Afterwards, Adam's will was placed as supreme, and the effect of this was guilt, and that guilt caused a psychological barrier to be raised between the spirit and will (soul). It says that the life is in the blood, which I believe means that the blood, (since it goes to every cell in the physical body), is the abode of the soul-life. When Adam disobeyed, his soul usurped the order in the body that God had originally set up, and Adam's blood was contaminated and it passed to all of us. It wasn't a physical change in the blood, but a change in the soul that lives in the blood. Then the only thing that could repay this debt of cursed blood, was the death of pure blood. A side effect of this is that through this process, mortality entered the body. From then on, men sinned because they are mortal and can't help but to sin. Romans 5:12 explains that sin entered the world from Adam, and then death entered from that sin, then all men sin because they have death in their beings and sin accordingly.
The Bible doesn't say Adam listened to God in his spirit. As a matter of fact, the Bible said Adam was created soulish (some translations have "natural" but it is the adjectival form of the noun "soul").
If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a
living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit." But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the
spiritual." (1 Corinthians 15:45-46)
Adam was soulish as the first man and Christ was spiritual as the second.
And what does the soulish man do? . . .
1Co_2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
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Since Adam named all the animals and in doing so God must have shown him all of these things and it would have been communicated from God to Adam's spirit, then to Adam's soul (or thought processes). This intelligence would have remained in his mind, and having been made directly from God's hand, his mind must have worked magnificently. But the guilt would have made the barrier, and further knowledge from that time forward would have to be learned through the mind without the spirit. We can call it guilt, or we could call it shame. This factor caused the barrier, and the spirit could no longer function as it was meant to, because it was separated from the soul and body by a guilt barrier.
The spirit of man is just the power that allows the man to live. Think of it as the electric circuit: The electric current is like spirit. The bulb is like the body and the light is like the soul. Remove the current and the bulb ceases to light.
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The Laodicean church was told that they were blind and naked. Was this the same as the shame of nakedness of Adam, and causing a barrier to their spiritual development? I think so. The next verse, Jesus admonishes them to buy gold tried in the fire (sanctification), so that their nakedness does not appear, just like it did with Adam. Hebrews 6:4-6 talks of those that can't recover. It says "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." This "shame" is a barrier between the spirit and soul, and it says that if they once tasted of the spiritual things, if they fall away (or willingly reject the working of the spirit), they cannot be returned to repentance about this, and if they did, they would be saying that the Adamic reversal that Jesus accomplished would be useless and an open shame. It doesn't condemn them to a permanent death for eternity, but it causes them to lose their connection between spirit and soul, because their souls have become the container of their wills that cause a barrier to recovery. The spirit itself is not affected though, other than the fact that it can never be developed in fullness with relation to the soul and body. At the resurrection of the dead, these people's spirits will be rejoined with their souls and the judgment and fire of God will determine how much of their works can remain, and how much will be burned away. The spirit is the path to living Christ-like, and the soul needs to follow the spirit if sanctification is to proceed.
The Bible doesn't say the soul is the carrier of the will of mankind. The humans will is of the flesh:
Joh_1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."
Eph_2:3 (among whom we also all behaved ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the comprehension, and were, in our nature, children of indignation, even as the rest),
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In Hebrews 12:2, it says that Jesus had joy set before Him, (because He knew the coming end result), and He endured the cross and despised the shame. The "shame" was not only the shame connected to His being naked on public display, but His nakedness was also a symbol of the nakedness that Adam discovered when His will disobeyed God's command. And, of course, Jesus despised this barrier and His death reversed this curse.
That is just to esoteric to be fully believed. The Bible says nothing of Christ nakedness was a symbol of the nakedness that Adam discovered.
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So, getting back to the death of Jesus, I don't believe that His spirit ever died, but it descended to the place where all other spirits were being kept. He explained to them the fulfillment that He accomplished in His death, and on Sunday morning they all were released from that place to go back to God, some to the presence of the Lord. His soul though is the part of the body containing the blood, (and in His case represented pure, infinitely valuable blood), and it experienced the death, or separation from spirit and body, fulfilling the debt owed for Adam's sin and remained dormant (or dead), until the act of resurrection. That's why He said, "Why have You forsaken ME?" It was His soul being disconnected from His Spirit just before death occurred.
The bible doesn't say Christ's spirit died when He died on the cross. The spirit in man is merely the breath of God which causes the person to live. It is not an entity or being. Pnuema is also translated as "wind" in the bible. Are you going to say the wind is a being?
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So, since it says that the spirit returns to God, it never dies, but with Adam it was separated from its proper function in relation to the soul and spirit. This "shame" or nakedness is the barrier that kept men from understanding spiritual things in pre-Mosaic times, and also blinded those that could not understand the Law in the correct way, because it says in Romans 7:14, "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." This is the reason why there was so much carnage in the Old Testament times. God gave them Laws that were meant to be interpreted spiritually, but in their blindness, they applied them physically.
Adam was not capable of knowing that which is of the spirit of God prior to his sinning since the Bible says he was created soulish. Adam could not know even prior to being naked.
Hi everyone Kind of a provocative title isn't it? Yes Jesus is our savior but do most Christians feel that way really? I know Christ die for us and I mean completely died, body and spirit. If you press many Christians that will say that His body died but His spirit did not, it went somewhere and did something. So the savior is not Christ but his dead body? I don't think so. Jesus died for us. He emptied himself and came down as a human so He could die. If all He wanted to do was occupy a flesh body for a while He would not need to empty himself of his heavenly glory but if He was to die as we do He had to.
That means that when we die we die body and spirit. If we did not why oh why would we need to be resurrected? When Jesus died He was resurrected to shows us what God was going to do for us. As it says in 1 Timothy 6:16 that only Jesus, (Who had been resurrected) has immortality at this time. We will all die and than we will be resurrected to face Judgment. After judgment we will repent and then we will have immortality.
The immortal spirit is a myth. The scriptures say that the dead know nothing. The is no knowledge in the grave not even the knowledge of God. If we already are immoral why would we need to be resurrected(which means to be risen from the dead) if we do not really die? For those that say well our old body will be resurrected, why? flesh can not enter spiritual heaven. When we are resurrected we will be given a spiritual body. All the people who have die are still dead and will be resurrected when Jesus returns and resurrects his elect and then the rest of mankind. But this is good news because the dead know nothing they don't know they are dead. From their point of view they will die and no matter how long it has been they will be in front of Jesus.
Jesus is God in flesh and bone, now glorified. destroy this temple/body, and I will/God, will raise it up.
Act_2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act_4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act_10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act_13:30 But God raised him from the dead:
Act_13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
So some of you don't really believe the evangel that Christ died for our sins, was entombed and that God raised Him from the dead.
You believe He was off playing checkers somewhere while He was dead?
I believe Christ died for my sins. I believe His death was a ransom of some sort, exactly what I have no idea since He never actually specified.
I believe because I have no reason to believe otherwise. As it's all a matter of faith, the Bible could be right or it could be wrong on the ransom matter. I'll go with the Bible on this because I have nothing to lose and everything to gain---a sort of modification on pascal's wager.
Believing doesn't hurt me and if anything, if it turns out to be true, it can only help me.
So I believe on faith, not having any sort of proof.
I believe Christ died for my sins. I believe His death was a ransom of some sort, exactly what I have no idea since He never actually specified.
I believe because I have no reason to believe otherwise. As it's all a matter of faith, the Bible could be right or it could be wrong on the ransom matter. I'll go with the Bible on this because I have nothing to lose and everything to gain---a sort of modification on pascal's wager.
Believing doesn't hurt me and if anything, if it turns out to be true, it can only help me.
So I believe on faith, not having any sort of proof.
Hi thrill,
Christ ransomed us from sin and death by giving Himself a ransom for all (1 Tim.2:4-6).
A picture of this is when God sacrificed the first-born of Egypt and used them to ransom/redeem the Israelite captives. They had to be freed due to being ransomed from slavery.
All mankind are enslaved to corruption, sin and death. God sacrificed His First-born son and ransomed us from sin and death.
Whether soul sleep or not, absent from the body, present with the Lord, means we are pretty much outside of time and could have slept a thousand years in an instant. You die, and instantly wake. Sounds ok to me. Just trust God, and hope you're not going to get the running through the woods naked dream, add infinitum, till the alarm goes off.
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