What happens after death, Let's discuss Heaven and Hell!!! (purification, Messiah, priests)
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I`m, not sure what you`re asking. Maybe you can reword it. It is also difficult for me to respond to your last post point by point because of the way you responded,you didn`t put quote tags around it. Anyway,I`ll try to respond to a couple of things. First and foremost,I DID NOT PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH. Go back and read what you wrote. You said...ok...you said...if YOU were a non-believer and you(you personally) heard the ur stance then you (you personally)would probably say... why should I(you personally) obey God if I (you personally)know God is going to save me (you personally)anyway. You may not like that you said that,you may wish that you didn`t say that,but that it is what you said..sorry. So I`ll ask you again,why do you worship God? Because of what you wrote you SEEM to be saying that if the universalist postion is true, there is no need to worship God in this life because he will make you love him anyway. Again,people who believe God will allow Satan to drag most of his creation to eternal hellfire love to use this argument. But it`s an argument that questions their own motives..and I understand that you don`t like that. Again,go back and read the story about the prodigal son. Speaking of parables,are you telling me that you think that is a true story and not a parable? Go back and read Luke 15 and 16 again. Jesus is talking to them in parables and most of them start out with..there was a certain rich man,or there was a certain man...etc. If you think it is true and not a parable then how does the rich man have a tongue,how is one drop of water going to do any good,how can he talk to abraham if there is a great gulf between them? Why does being rich have to do with anything? He called him Father Abraham,,why is that? If the man is in literal flames how can that harm his body since his body returned to the dust of the earth? maybe you think the parables of the the unjust steward..dishonest servant...lost coin...lost sheep..etc are actual literal true stories as well.. Maybe since,you believe in a literal hell with literal flames,you also believe in a literal beast with ten horns coming up out of a literal sea. If you look behind that beast..you will sea the lake of fire
And yes I do copy and paste certain comments on scripture and I also copy & paste certain scripture from the bible as well...guess I`m lazy..like most people. I would be here all night typing. So because I look at other websites that tend to believe as I do, you call that mans doctrine? I guess you didn`t read what I wrote previously,so I`ll tell you again. I believe that people who follow doctrine blindly without researching it on their own and just go with the masses are following mans doctrine. I don`t follow any one person or any one church. I call myself a christian universalist because that most closely resembles what I believe. I grew up in the church and believed as you do for over 40 years. Trust me,I have been exposed to a lot of church doctrine. Something about Gods nature and an eternal,literal hellfire, as well as other things that are taught in the church didn`t seem right to me. But like you,I just accepted it on faith because that was what I supposed to do eventhough it didn`t make sense to me. So like you, when I didn`t understand something,it was just oh well....God`s ways are not our ways etc. We can`t understand God,just trust that he is just and fair....sound familiar? So I understand why you believe the way you do.
As far as the word aion or eon is concerned...I see you didn`t respond to that. Why do you suppose that same word, if it is supposed to mean eternity or everlasting etc., is translated different ways with different meanings depending on the scripture? Here are a few examples : Luke 18:30....the eon to come......col. 1:26..hid from the eons.....1cor 10:11 .... the consummation of the eons......rev.11:15....eons of the eons....1cor. 2:7...before the eons....Heb 1:2 ....makes the eons..There are many many others. Now try substituing everlasting,forever,or eternity in place of the above eons. Do they make sense? Let`s look at Matthew24:3,,the conclusion of the aion....put forever or eternity in there..make sense? So why do you pick and choose where to put the word eternity and when to substitute it for world,centuries,universe,time,etc. Obviously because you haven`t done a word search and try to figure it out. You just believe what you`ve been taught and go with masses. That`s how I know it is mans doctrine because you choose to believe his translation instead of the original word that is used. Now,i know this isn`t going to change your mind. But maybe there is someone out there reading who knew in their spirit that it didn`t make sense to them. Research it for yourself,don`t take my word for it or anybody elses. just research the wording. But again,I would like to know why you choose to believe all the different translations for the same word? Can you answer that please?
spm62,
To start out it sounds like I have offend you by what I wrote, for that I am sorry. Also sorry for poor the responce I tried to multi-quote and did not know what I was doing.
What I was asking at the end of my previous quote was: Why do you think that satan is victories over God, if there is a eternal hell?
I think you mis-understood me, I did go back and read what I wrote: "What I do think is going on here is satan the "deciever" has snaked his way into all denominations doing what ever he can to mis-lead as many as he can. In a nut shell if I was a non-believer and came across one of the UR web sites, I would probably come to the conclusion that there would be no need for me to change my life style, or to do anything because in the end I am going to be with God, no worries at all. God loves me and sometime God will make me love him. IMO that does describe love at all. " Notice I said IF You made it sound like I was saying that if the UR doctrine is true then I could stop worshiping God because he will make me worship him some time, that was not the point I was trying to make: The point I was trying to make is this: I used to work with a guy who like to live a very wordly live, now he knew my postion and would try to ridicule me any chance he could, there would be days that he would have way listen to me about God, but at the end of the conversation he would just simple state "That he was not ready and that he did not want to give up his ways to serve the Lord, he grew up in church knew that Jesus died on the cross but thought that he had to change his ways for God to love him, of course I would tell him that we can't do anything on our own to change but God would change us we are to just come as we our. Anyway the point I was trying to make is what if someone like my co-worker who has been delighted in the ways of the world and thinks that someday he will change but not right now comes across a UR website and Reads it particually the part about hell not being forever, I would think that after reading that he would never see a need for God in his lifetime, his opinion would be "I can continue living the way I do I might go to hell for a while but eventually I will be restored back to God, so to him and the way he lives his life he is not close to God now so why not continue to have fun, by getting drunk sleeping with has many woman as possible, etc. Because now he has learned that hell is not forever it is not a burning lake of fire to him its just being away from God, which is exactly the state he is in now and he rather enjoys it.
For myself I am a believer I have no doubt about my salvation. I will admit that you seem to have a strong background in word studies and you are very confidiant in your believes. I have not research the UR doctrine very deeply although I have looked at one of the web sites I don't remember which one I believe its one that you or shanabrown posted. I guess there were several things I could not get passed, such as the trinity, tithe, hell, those are the main issues. But maybe it would do me some good to purchase some different translations and do some indepth word studies, I owe that to God.
Hi Ministers, I hope that God blesses your minstry to reach many for Him but I would like to say that I feel that much of what you have inferred in your last post suggests that those who Christians who don't agree with you as far as some teachings are in fact not Christians. For example, you have suggested that some are twisting the scriptures. If someone doesn't see exactly as you see doesn't mean that they are twisting the scriptures to fit as they believe. It may mean that they have a different understanding and this for many reasons. You are also suggesting that most who say they are Christians who don't see exactly as you do on certain teachings are really lost when God is the judge as to who is lost and who is not lost. Only God knows all hearts. And you are suggesting that those who don't believe in hell (and I think you are referring to everlasting hell because most believers who have posted on this thread concerning hell have said that they do believe in hell or that people will experience hell) are in fact themselves not living a Godly life and are in need of repentance. These suggestions are your opinions and you have a right to your opinion but this does come across to me as being very self righteous. Take care and God bless you.
To perceive life as a sacred gift?
To experience perception as the worship of the one?
To be very intelligent and yet religious?
God is all there is---mankinds infinite
We are--should do better!!!!!!!
Consciousness is the road to the numinous
So do better!!!
Children should not be/ are not truly in control of this finite quandary
To perceive life as a sacred gift?
To experience perception as the worship of the one?
To be very intelligent and yet religious?
God is all there is---mankinds infinite
We are--should do better!!!!!!!
Consciousness is the road to the numinous
So do better!!!
Children should not be in control of this finite quandary
This place is not new?
Religion, faith and belief has made of this place the mountain?
The word of Prophets and good men say it is so
this world shall be of man an Eden or you and I have failed in the true worship of God!!!
One chance
One life
one god shared
i am not sure-- nobody ever comes back to discuss it so no way of knowing.
i have seen some pretty good imitations of hell. the japanese got a word "duka"
it means wanting what you cannt have. i think we got a lot of that here dont you?
my uncle in mississippi says bunky, livin in california is like livin with a beautiful woman,
that has a headache all the time.
I believe one way a christian can share his or her faith is the discussion of what happens after we die. Do Heaven and Hell really exist? Are they actual places? Is Hell simply the grave, or a fiery place? Let's discuss.
"It is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgement." (Hebrews 9:27)
"Whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:15)
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21)
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell." (Matthew 10:28)
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32)
Intellectuals tell me there are no ghosts
this world of spirit is more complicated than you would believe
Christ and the spirits of the Godhead/ the cave/ pagan?
I guess there were several things I could not get passed, such as the trinity, tithe, hell, those are the main issues.
Bwmillard, I just wanted to share that all who may be viewed as Christian Universalists or Universalist Christians do not agree on each and every subject in the scriptures. For example, there are those who believe in tithing and some that do not, some who believe in the Trinity and some do not. Some believe that believers go straight to heaven when they die and some do not. Some take a more literal approach to the scriptures and some do not. Even Dave and I disagree on some things . But the common thread as far as universalism goes is that we believe that the scriptures present eventual reconciliation of all mankind to God. God bless.
To start out it sounds like I have offend you by what I wrote, for that I am sorry. Also sorry for poor the responce I tried to multi-quote and did not know what I was doing.
It took me a while to figure out the quote tag thing. I was just pointing out that I couldn`t respond to each quote because of that.
Quote:
What I was asking at the end of my previous quote was: Why do you think that satan is victories over God, if there is a eternal hell?
Why do you think God made man? Was it so billions and billions would go to an eternal torture chamber? Why do you think God made satan? Was it so he would lead billions and billions to that torture chamber and away from God.
Remember,God foreknows everything. So if God creates man because he desires sons and daughters in his likeness and then creates satan knowing what would happen,why? Is satan God`s adversary? So,you have satan leading the overwhelming majority of God`s creation (not satan`s creation..because he can`t create anything) to eternal torture and God getting a relative few to join him in his kingdom. Who won out over God`s creation? Did satan meet his objective by destroying God`s creation or did God meet his objective by having his creation become sons and daughters and be with him for eternity? If God is never able to restore his creation to his original purpose,which he said is his good pleasure and will to do and satan`s role of adversary is to lead that creation away from God..whose objectives and wills prevailed?
Quote:
I think you mis-understood me, I did go back and read what I wrote: "What I do think is going on here is satan the "deciever" has snaked his way into all denominations doing what ever he can to mis-lead as many as he can. In a nut shell if I was a non-believer and came across one of the UR web sites, I would probably come to the conclusion that there would be no need for me to change my life style, or to do anything because in the end I am going to be with God, no worries at all. God loves me and sometime God will make me love him. IMO that does describe love at all. " Notice I said IF You made it sound like I was saying that if the UR doctrine is true then I could stop worshiping God because he will make me worship him some time, that was not the point I was trying to make: The point I was trying to make is this: I used to work with a guy who like to live a very wordly live, now he knew my postion and would try to ridicule me any chance he could, there would be days that he would have way listen to me about God, but at the end of the conversation he would just simple state "That he was not ready and that he did not want to give up his ways to serve the Lord, he grew up in church knew that Jesus died on the cross but thought that he had to change his ways for God to love him, of course I would tell him that we can't do anything on our own to change but God would change us we are to just come as we our. Anyway the point I was trying to make is what if someone like my co-worker who has been delighted in the ways of the world and thinks that someday he will change but not right now comes across a UR website and Reads it particually the part about hell not being forever, I would think that after reading that he would never see a need for God in his lifetime, his opinion would be "I can continue living the way I do I might go to hell for a while but eventually I will be restored back to God, so to him and the way he lives his life he is not close to God now so why not continue to have fun, by getting drunk sleeping with has many woman as possible, etc. Because now he has learned that hell is not forever it is not a burning lake of fire to him its just being away from God, which is exactly the state he is in now and he rather enjoys it.
Right,if you were an unbeliever,you would see no reason to follow God in this life. But, if there was an eternal torture chamber,then that would make the difference. So, you would follow God simply out of fear of that torture chamber and not because of the love of God. When you first came to God,did you come because you were afraid of eternal torment or did you recognize the love of God? If your friend comes to God,it will be because God opens his eyes and draws him not because of an eternal torture chamber.
Quote:
For myself I am a believer I have no doubt about my salvation. I will admit that you seem to have a strong background in word studies and you are very confidiant in your believes. I have not research the UR doctrine very deeply although I have looked at one of the web sites I don't remember which one I believe its one that you or shanabrown posted. I guess there were several things I could not get passed, such as the trinity, tithe, hell, those are the main issues. But maybe it would do me some good to purchase some different translations and do some indepth word studies, I owe that to God.
I have no doubt that you are a believer. I don`t believe your salvation is dependent on believing in how God will restore his creation. But,I do believe if one truly wants to know the truth and love of God they will never stop searching. Obviously I believe that it is God who puts the desire in our heart to seek and it his him that draws us for his purpose. But in our own minds it seems as if we are the ones doing the searching and finding. From our human perspective we are the ones acting it out based on our logic and reasoning. But God is in control of the spiritual things.
I also wanted to add about searching ur sites....as Shana pointed out,I as well as her do not subscribe to every belief. Even ur sites disagree about how God will ultamently fullfill his purpose. But the underlying theme throughout the bible is God`s restoration of his creation and this is our common ground. As Shana pointed out,we don`t agree on all things..but maybe 99%.. I learn an awful lot from my sister in Christ.
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in thepresence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
I had mentioned earlier that I wondered about the "in the presence of the Lamb" in the above verses. Here is what I found in some of my commentaries.
Quote:
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; the latter will be their Judge, and will condemn them to everlasting burnings, and pronounce the sentence on them; and the former will be the executioners of it; they will gather them out, and sever them from the righteous, and cast them into the furnace of fire, and will be spectators of their punishment, and rejoice at it; and the sight of their power and glory will increase the torment of the sufferers.
(John Gill's Expositor)
Quote:
tormented...in the presence of...angels— (#Ps 49:14 58:10 139:21 Isa 66:24). God’s enemies are regarded by the saints as their enemies, and when the day of probation is past, their mind shall be so entirely one with God’s, that they shall rejoice in witnessing visibly the judicial vindication of God’s righteousness in sinners’ punishment.
(Jaimeson, Faucet Brown Commentary)
Quote:
And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; that is, in short, he shall go to hell at last; the exquisiteness of which torments, as to the pain of sense, is set out by fire and brimstone; brimstone being a material in which fire holds longest to torment any flesh put into it.
(Mathew Poole's Commentary of the Bible)
Quote:
This holy environment adds to the punishment.
(Robertson's NT Word Pictures)
Last edited by bradm; 01-22-2008 at 10:30 PM..
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.. Maybe since,you believe in a literal hell with literal flames,you also believe in a literal beast with ten horns coming up out of a literal sea. If you look behind that beast..you will sea the lake of fire
OK a start is still a start
Hi Ministers, I hope that God blesses your minstry to reach many for Him but I would like to say that I feel that much of what you have inferred in your last post suggests that those who Christians who don't agree with you as far as some teachings are in fact not Christians. For example, you have suggested that some are twisting the scriptures. If someone doesn't see exactly as you see doesn't mean that they are twisting the scriptures to fit as they believe. It may mean that they have a different understanding and this for many reasons. You are also suggesting that most who say they are Christians who don't see exactly as you do on certain teachings are really lost when God is the judge as to who is lost and who is not lost. Only God knows all hearts. And you are suggesting that those who don't believe in hell (and I think you are referring to everlasting hell because most believers who have posted on this thread concerning hell have said that they do believe in hell or that people will experience hell) are in fact themselves not living a Godly life and are in need of repentance. These suggestions are your opinions and you have a right to your opinion but this does come across to me as being very self righteous. Take care and God bless you.
I learn an awful lot from my sister in Christ.
