What happens after death, Let's discuss Heaven and Hell!!! (believer, Holy Spirit, translation)

[bradm]

I talked to some Calvinist friends of mine recently. They think unborn babies can go to hell too. She had a misscarriage years ago and they hope their baby went to heaven, but really don’t know if God predestined the child to go to heaven or hell.

This means they think it’s possible that the only concious thought this child could ever have is of judgement and torment at the hands of God.

[bigthirsty]

Originally Posted by ministers

I believe one way a christian can share his or her faith is the discussion of what happens after we die. Do Heaven and Hell really exist? Are they actual places? Is Hell simply the grave, or a fiery place? Let's discuss.


"It is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgement." (Hebrews 9:27)

"Whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:15)

"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21)

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell." (Matthew 10:28)

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32)

I'd say Heaven is cold beers and college football..

I'd say Hell is cold beers and watching Alabama play college football..

[bradm]

Originally Posted by ministers

This is what wrong with this nation. Do you discipline your children when they do wrong? If your answer is "yes" then I say to you"Are you more spiritual and holy than God? "If your answer is "no" then I say to you "How do you plan on teaching your children right from wrong"? ....

I don't know about everyone else, but the discipline I give to my kids is limited in duration and has a goal of correction.

[ShanaBrown]

Originally Posted by ministers
This is what wrong with this nation. Do you discipline your children when they do wrong? If your answer is "yes" then I say to you"Are you more spiritual and holy than God? "If your answer is "no" then I say to you "How do you plan on teaching your children right from wrong"? ....

I don't know about everyone else, but the discipline I give to my kids is limited in duration and has a goal of correction.

I agree with you, Bradm. To discipline is different from throwing someone away or punishing them for all of eternity. When I use to believe that eternal hell was the destination for the lost I use to wonder whether or not there would come a time when the Father would say "enough is enough". The Father is described as love, merciful, just, full of compassion and all men are His offspring. Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who put Him to death for "they know not what they do." How can someone who is said to be lost and deceived really know what they are doing?

I talked to some Calvinist friends of mine recently. They think unborn babies can go to hell too. She had a misscarriage years ago and they hope their baby went to heaven, but really don’t know if God predestined the child to go to heaven or hell.

This means they think it’s possible that the only concious thought this child could ever have is of judgement and torment at the hands of God.

I wonder how they can reconcile this line of thinking with scriptures like 1 Timothy 4:10 and Colossians 1:15-20. And how can they reconcile God who is described as love and just as creating a baby for the sole purpose of sending him or her to an eternal hell? Thanks for sharing. God bless.

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

I agree with you, Bradm. To discipline is different from throwing someone away or punishing them for all of eternity. When I use to believe that eternal hell was the destination for the lost I use to wonder whether or not there would come a time when the Father would say "enough is enough". The Father is described as love, merciful, just, full of compassion and all men are His offspring. Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who put Him to death for "they know not what they do." How can someone who is said to be lost and deceived really know what they are doing?



I wonder how they can reconcile this line of thinking with scriptures like 1 Timothy 4:10 and Colossians 1:15-20. And how can they reconcile God who is described as love and just as creating a baby for the sole purpose of sending him or her to an eternal hell? Thanks for sharing. God bless.

ShanaBrown:

I believe that the key to this entire argument lies in the unique, majestic and awesome character of God--especially His holiness. He is holy; we are not. Nothing unholy can enter His presence--nothing.

He is so much OTHER than we are that it is impossible for us to compare ourselves to Him. In fact, it is nothing short of blasphemous to do so. This issue of is there a hell or should there be a hell comes about from mere puny man bringing God down to his level in a futile attempt to try to package Him and understand Him. It is the exaltation of man that causes us to shutter at the total right and justice of a holy God to cast out from Himself anything defiled or unholy.

When we complain and shake our fists in the face of God Who always does that which is right and just and good and say "It is unfair for you to send people to Hell," are we not judging the Judge and calling unrighteous that which is total Righteousness? Are we not making of Him Who is total Goodness and Truth that which is somehow deficient and somehow false?

Paul nailed this entire argument in Romans 9--"What shall we say, then? Is there unrighteousness with God . . . . O man, who are you to reply against God?"

Our focus should not be on the mentally disabled, or the newborn child, or a deathbed conversion, but on the attributes of God through which we totally and wholly trust Him to do that which is good and right and just--and even loving. As A. W. Tozer so eloquently put it in his wonderful book, The Knowledge of the Holy, "All of God does all that God does." In other words, He never demonstrates His wrath apart from His love. He never exacts judgment without total justice. Even in His wrath and in His judgment He never relinquishes His characteristic goodness and love.

His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our throughts. He is beyond our ability to fully comprehend--that is what makes Him God--that is what places Him so far above us that makes even the consideration of His being so far above nonsensical and totally inadequate. It is because He is so "other" than we are that we can totally and completely trust Him to do that which is fair, right, good and just--no matter how we view it!

Preterist

[ShanaBrown]

In other words, He never demonstrates His wrath apart from His love. He never exacts judgment without total justice. Even in His wrath and in His judgment He never relinquishes His characteristic goodness and love.

Definitely.

His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our throughts. He is beyond our ability to fully comprehend--that is what makes Him God--that is what places Him so far above us that makes even the consideration of His being so far above nonsensical and totally inadequate. It is because He is so "other" than we are that we can totally and completely trust Him to do that which is fair, right, good and just--no matter how we view it!

I talked to some Calvinist friends of mine recently. They think unborn babies can go to hell too. She had a misscarriage years ago and they hope their baby went to heaven, but really don’t know if God predestined the child to go to heaven or hell.

This means they think it’s possible that the only concious thought this child could ever have is of judgement and torment at the hands of God.

I wonder how they can reconcile this line of thinking with scriptures like 1 Timothy 4:10 and Colossians 1:15-20. And how can they reconcile God who is described as love and just as creating a baby for the sole purpose of sending him or her to an eternal hell? I view that God is love, just, merciful, compassionate and that He is the Savior of all because His word tells me this . How can He be the Savior of all and reconcile all to Himself if He predestines an unborn child to eternal punishment? This is a contradiction with His word and believers are being conformed into His image, having the mind of Christ. There are some things that we do not know but there are some things that God has revealed to us, right? Thanks for sharing. God bless.

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Definitely.







I wonder how they can reconcile this line of thinking with scriptures like 1 Timothy 4:10 and Colossians 1:15-20. And how can they reconcile God who is described as love and just as creating a baby for the sole purpose of sending him or her to an eternal hell? I view that God is love, just, merciful, compassionate and that He is the Savior of all because His word tells me this . How can He be the Savior of all and reconcile all to Himself if He predestines an unborn child to eternal punishment? This is a contradiction with His word and believers are being conformed into His image, having the mind of Christ. There are some things that we do not know but there are some things that God has revealed to us, right? Thanks for sharing. God bless.

ShanaBrown: There is a clear contrast in 1 Timothy 4:10 between "men" and "those who believe." This verse ties in quite well with John 3:16--"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSEOVER believes should not perished but have everlasting life." In this sense, John tells us that Jesus is the only Savior possible for all men--all who would be saved must come through Him. To those who trust in Him and through the grace of God are born again, He is especially a Savior--in other words, He is not just the possible Savior offered for all men to receive, but He is their actual and real Savior through their personal faith.

John makes it clear through the inspiration of God that there are those who will perish unless they are among the WHOSOEVERs who believe in God's only begotten Son.

Again, we cannot know the disposition of infants, the infirm, the mentally disabled, etc. We must always center such concerns in the character of God--He will not treat any of these groups of people unjustly, unrighteously or unlovingly. I know it is difficult when we are dealing with "innocent" infants and those mentally challenged, but we cannot speak for God and make a blanket statement and say that all such are automatically saved. That is our perspective; that is our will; that is our perception of what is right and just and good.

I truly believe that we must leave such matter to God and trust that He will do that which honors His holy character and attributes.

Preterist

[ShanaBrown]

.

I wonder how they can reconcile this line of thinking with scriptures like 1 Timothy 4:10 and Colossians 1:15-20. And how can they reconcile God who is described as love and just as creating a baby for the sole purpose of sending him or her to an eternal hell? I view that God is love, just, merciful, compassionate and that He is the Savior of all because His word tells me this . How can He be the Savior of all and reconcile all to Himself if He predestines an unborn child to eternal punishment? This is a contradiction with His word and believers are being conformed into His image, having the mind of Christ. There are some things that we do not know but there are some things that God has revealed to us, right? Thanks for sharing. God bless.

ShanaBrown: There is a clear contrast in 1 Timothy 4:10 between "men" and "those who believe."

There is distinction made, but God is described as the Savior of both. He is especially the Savior of believers. If someone believes that an unborn child is predestined to an eternal hell, how can God be the unborn child's Savior? The unborn child would have no chance for any salvation and God would not be his or her Savior.

This verse ties in quite well with John 3:16--"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSEOVER believes should not perished but have everlasting life." In this sense, John tells us that Jesus is the only Savior possible for all men--all who would be saved must come through Him. To those who trust in Him and through the grace of God are born again, He is especially a Savior--in other words, He is not just the possible Savior offered for all men to receive, but He is their actual and real Savior through their personal faith.

I believe that the scriptures teach that many will perish in this age and in the age to come. Believers are experience salvation now and they are being transformed into His image They experience aionios life, the life of knowing God and all that this involves. Many will experience condemnation and exclusion but eventually all will be reconciled to God. (1 Cor.15)

If God predestines some to an eternal hell with no opportunity or chance for salvation, how can He be their Savior as 1 Timothy 4:10 states? How could He even be their possible Savior if they have no chance for salvation according to what Calvinism teaches from what I understand?

John makes it clear through the inspiration of God that there are those who will perish unless they are among the WHOSOEVERs who believe in God's only begotten Son.

Again, I believe that many will perish in this age and in the next age, however the apostle Paul makes it clear that God is to be all in all one day (1 Corin. 15). All creation is to be delivered. All are to be reunited, summed up, headed up in Jesus Christ according to Ephesians 1.

Again, we cannot know the disposition of infants, the infirm, the mentally disabled, etc. We must always center such concerns in the character of God--He will not treat any of these groups of people unjustly, unrighteously or unlovingly. I know it is difficult when we are dealing with "innocent" infants and those mentally challenged, but we cannot speak for God and make a blanket statement and say that all such are automatically saved. That is our perspective; that is our will; that is our perception of what is right and just and good.

Hi, my statements were made in regard to what Bradm shared concerning the couple's belief that their unborn child might or might not go to an eternal hell. (I think that he was referring to eternal hell) How can God be said to be the Savior of all men (even if you believe that this refers to possible Savior) and why was it His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself if the unborn baby has no opportunity for reconciliation? I do believe that there are many scriptures which do present and support the eventual restoration or reconciliation of all. The scriptures state that it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself and that He will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. I don't believe that He will reconcile all because I want Him to but I believe that He will reconcile all because this was His good pleasure to do so.

I truly believe that we must leave such matter to God and trust that He will do that which honors His holy character and attributes.

I am just sharing there seems to be a contradiction if someone believes that God predetermines some to go to eternal hell and predetermines some for eternal life when He is described as the Savior of all men and when the scriptures state that it was His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself. There is a contradiction here.

This means they think it’s possible that the only concious thought this child could ever have is of judgement and torment at the hands of God.

_______________

He is not just the possible Savior offered for all men to receive,

Do you believe this Preterist? Maybe I am misunderstanding what Calvinism teaches.

Thanks Preterist and God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

How can God be the possible Savior for all to receive if He never intends to open the hearts of the majority of people? It would like someone telling someone that he or she was someone's doctor yet he or she never planned on seeing and treating the person. How can God be someone's Savior if He sees the destruction they are bound for (created for) and never lifts a finger to help them? Wouldn't that be a lie? God bless.

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

How can God be the possible Savior for all to receive if He never intends to open the hearts of the majority of people? It would like someone telling someone that he or she was someone's doctor yet he or she never planned on seeing and treating the person. How can God be someone's Savior if He sees the destruction they are bound for (created for) and never lifts a finger to help them? Wouldn't that be a lie? God bless.

Good morning, ShanaBrown: Have you read Romans 9?

Have a great day in the Lord!

Preterist