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We are saved for works, and believers want to demonstrate their faith. As a matter of fact, it is a good way to test your faith. Do you feel the urge to demonstrate it, and do you do it with joy, or do you feel you are required to do it, and do you do it out of obligation? Clearly you feel it is a requirement, which makes you a legalist.
Clearly, I feel that it is an indicator of our faith and that without it there really IS no faith. Clearly I take seriously the injunction to "spur one another to love and good deeds" as opposed to telling each other that the work of salvation is completed at the cross and that any emphasis on doing good works is to deny the effectiveness of the cross.
By now you can see that both the scripture is ignored--at least in its fullness, it is cherry-picked---AND the early church fathers' comments which I posted in #616 are also ignored.
In addition ShanaBrown has quoted numerous scriptures with dozens of posts--all either vilified or twisted to form a different religion than the faith of our fathers.
you twist it to suit your understanding, show me one qoute from those fathers that say substitutionary. if you cannot, and you cannot guess who is cherry picking.
Pneuma, please reread what I shared asked again. I don't see how you came to that conclusion. My point was that if a person is a true believer then they would want to pick up their cross and follow Christ, right? God bless and peace.
I did read it sis, let me show why you should have worded it differently
Pneuma, is a true believer (Christian), one who refuses to take up his cross
and follow Christ?
if that is just scanned, as so many seem to do and the comma is missed what does it sound like?
From one of the great latter day Christian authors, C.S. Lewis
We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity. That is what has to be believed. Any theories we build up as to how Christ's death did all this are, in my view, quite secondary: mere plans or diagrams to be left alone if they do not help us, and, even if they do help us, not to be confused with the thing itself. All the same, some of these theories are worth looking at.
The one most people have heard is the one about our being let off because Christ volunteered to bear a punishment instead of us. Now on the face of it that is a very silly theory. If God was prepared to let us off, why on earth did He not do so? And what possible point could there be in punishing an innocent person instead? None at all that I can see, if you are thinking of punishment in the police-court sense. On the other hand, if you think of a debt, there is plenty of point in a person who has some assets paying it on behalf of someone who has not. Or if you take "paying the penalty," not in the sense of being punished, but in the more general sense of "footing the bill," then, of course, it is a matter of common experience that, when one person has got himself into a hole, the trouble of getting him out usually falls on a kind friend.
Now what was the sort of "hole" man had gotten himself into? He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if he belonged to himself. In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. Laying down your arms, surrendering, saying you are sorry, realising that you have been on the wrong track and getting ready to start life over again from the ground floor - that is the only way out of a "hole." This process of surrender - this movement full speed astern - is what Christians call repentance. Now repentance is no fun at all. It is something much harder than merely eating humble pie. It means unlearning all the self-conceit and self-will that we have been training ourselves into for thousands of years. It means undergoing a kind of death. In fact, it needs a good man to repent. And here's the catch. Only a bad person needs to repent: only a good person can repent perfectly.The worse you are the more you need it and the less you can do it. The only person who could do it perfectly would be a perfect person - and he would not need it.
Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off of if He chose: it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like. If you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen. Very well, then, we must go through with it. But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it. Can we do it if God helps us? Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us? We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak. He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another. When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them. We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it. Now if we had not fallen, that would all be plain sailing. But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all - to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die. Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all. So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked. God can share only what He has: this thing, in His own nature, He has not.
But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person - then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all.
C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, (Fount Paperbacks, 1977), Chapter 4, The Perfect Penitent
your as bad as Mike, well my teachers say this and they got phd and fbi and abc as if some alphabits after someones name make them an authority on the scriptures.
It is no wonder most of you guys never see anying new. taught of men and then teach from men.
your as bad as Mike, well my teachers say this and they got phd and fbi and abc as if some alphabits after someones name make them an authority on the scriptures.
It is no wonder most of you guys never see anying new. taught of men and then teach from men.
Yes, learning from someone who has studied and experienced something is never the right way.
Of cause it does. A Savior saves, the saving is done by him, not you bobbing up and down in the water shouting you are not God you are not a savior, do not dare come into this water to pull me out, or the savior waits for your permission for him to come and save you. . You would have to be suicidal to speak that way and he who is willing and able to save, would save you anyway.
This mentality that God needs your permission to be your savior is absurd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
lol
Christ is the Savior of all men/His death covers the sins of all
1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
2 Corinthians 5:15 - and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
Hebrews 10:12 - but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time,
All are not saved
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 - For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Philippians 3:18-19 - For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.
Revelation 20:13-15 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
And for all he died, that those living, no more to themselves may live, but to him who died for them, and was raised again. 2 Cor 5:15
Now that is the real reason why Jesus Christ died, to destroy the power of sin and death over our lives, so that we live the life we are missing out on. You've got it........abundant life.
I did answer it fin, the will mature in the age to come.
OK, so you believe we must work to earn maturity, and if we don't work, then we will mature anyway. In other words you will mature with, or without works.
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