God will not save the world according to many. (prophets, history, Commandment)
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So are you guys saying the scriptures I posted in post 191 are wrong because these scriptures say I never knew you? Do you not see that I never knew you is BEFORE the judgment? Did you not see that those WITHOUT the gate AFTER judgment still have right to the tree of life?
What you guys need and should be doing is seeing how you can reconcile these scriptures...
1 Timothy 4:9-11
9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God,who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11These things command and teach.
John 4:42
42 They told the woman, "We no longer have faith in Jesus just because of what you told us. We have heard him ourselves, and we are certain that he is the Savior of the world!"
1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son the Saviour of the world.
.....with eternal torment or annihilation. They simply cannot be reconciled, what you end up doing is favoring you doctrinal understanding of certain scriptures over scripture that plainly says God is the saviour of the WORLD or ALL MEN.
Go ahead and try to reconcile them.
God( Jehovah) is the savior of the world, it is his power alone that goes through Jesus( Acts 2:22)--which makes Jesus savior as well, because its all being done through Jesus.
Jesus said many on the broad and spacious path--Jesus said many at Matt 7:21-23( final judgement)
Final Judgement is the place of final correction. There is what you need to understand. God knows the END from the BEGINNING. He did not create in vain. He did not give life in vain to anyone.
Final Judgement is the place of final correction. There is what you need to understand. God knows the END from the BEGINNING. He did not create in vain. He did not give life in vain to anyone.
Romains 9:17 For this reason did I raise up Pharaoh - That I might display My Power (to unbelievers).
God( Jehovah) is the savior of the world, it is his power alone that goes through Jesus( Acts 2:22)--which makes Jesus savior as well, because its all being done through Jesus.
You keep repeating that kjw, but refuse to believe God is the saviour of the WORLD or ALL MEN. You say that He is then post scripture to trying to show that He is not.
Romains 9:17 For this reason did I raise up Pharaoh - That I might display My Power (to unbelievers).
Understanding Romans 9
I have stated that the answer to what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9 is to be found in the potter and the clay. I posted a small article concerning this but never explained how it relates to what Paul was saying. So I will now endeavour to use both sets of scripture to show the truth that Paul was teaching.
Many read Romans 9 and come away with the idea that God foreknows everything from before creation and as God foreknows everything from before creation nothing can change what God foreknows, thus Gods foreknowledge is static (that is being from before creation), that God makes vessels of dishonour and vessels of honour and that there is no such thing as freewill.
These beliefs do not come to us from scripture; they come to us from philosophy. To be exact they come to us from the philosopher named Plato. Augustine incorporated Plato philosophy into Christianity and since the days of Augustine God's (static) foreknowledge has been taught as the status quo. Because of this teaching, Calvin came to believe that everyone born is predestined by God's foreknowledge to either heaven or hell so there is no such thing as freewill. The beliefs of these 3 men have led many astray from what the scriptures actually state.
So let us look at some scriptures and hopefully people will set aside their preconceived ideas and let the scriptures speak for themselves.
I am going to look at these scripture individually and collectively.
Individually
Romans 9:17-24
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
To understand what Paul is saying here we have to look at the potter and the clay. This is found in Jeremiah 18.
Jeremiah 18:1-6
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
The Septuagint has verse 4 and the vessel which he was making with his handsfell:
So we see that the vessel God was making fell, so God picks up the clay and makes another vessel out of it.
Now read in Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Now keep in mind that it is the SAME LUMP.
The vessel unto dishonour we are told in verse 22 is fitted to destruction.
What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?
Destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is rooted in apollumi. Apollumi, as most Universalist knows is a corrective word or a word of correction. When God Apollumi’s someone God is correcting that person.
Fitted is the Greek word katartizo and means to make one as he ought to be made.
So when the scriptures state that the vessels of dishonour are fitted to destruction it is saying that the vessels of dishonour are made how they ought to be made through correction.
What is Gods aim for every vessel?
It is Gods aim that every vessel is made unto honour.
Now remember the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour are the SAME LUMP.
What these scriptures are telling us when we compare Paul with Jeremiah is that God will take man and remould and remould man as many times as it takes to make man into a vessel of honour. Out of the SAME LUMP a vessel of honour and a vessel of dishonour.
Collectively
Jeremiah 18:11-12 states
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
Here we see God pronounces evil against Judah and Jerusalem and the people say there is no hope. They seemed to believe like many reading this that because God prophesied there doom and nothing can change Gods prophecy there was no hope for them so they might as well walk after their own devices. Doom was prophesied, doom must come.
However, is that what God wanted them to believe? Or was He showing them that prophesy can be changed through repentance.
Jeremiah 18:7-10
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Here we can see few things.
Repentance changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Obedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Disobedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
So how does Jeremiah apply to what Paul told us?
Romans 9 through 11 has to be taken as a whole. And the whole is all about election.
Paul summarizes everything he said in Romans 9 this way
Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
This summery by Paul here he goes on to explain in Romans 11.
Romans 11 tells us that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief and the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith.
The Jews are vessels of dishonor through their unbelief; they are the vessels, which fell from the potter’s hand.
Jeremiah 18:10
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
The Gentiles are vessels of Honor by faith.
The Jews were hardened the Gentiles received mercy.
Ro.11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
The Jews are the vessels fitted to destruction because of their unbelief. They are the vessels who will be grafted back into the tree if they abide not in their unbelief. Thus, they are the vessels made as they ought to be made through correction, being grafted back in, vessels of honor.
Can you show me a scripture that says one cannot believe after death?
Luke 13
23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27 and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29 And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last.”
Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And [r]besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
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