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Hey a large number of the gay people I got to know did live very promiscuous lives or did in the past.
In addition it is common for gay men not to practice safe sex. I know this as not all men use condoms in gay sex clubs and I used to go to them. I just don't need stats to look it up.
Yet due to that it is no surprise that gay men HIV rates are still increasing and the biggest increase is the under 25 year old men. Infact many gays are unaware they have HIV.
Also another report to be presented at the conference shows close to 40 per cent of gay men admit having unprotected casual sex at least once in 2012.HIV rates rise among gay men
Hey guess what? You're talking about clubs. Do you think all gay men go to clubs? They don't.
I know....let's start equating all Christians to the Westborough Baptist Church. Because all Christians are just like them right?
The world may be changing and there is an increasingly tolerant of homosexuality and more and more people are accepting of gay marriage. Plus a majority of people do not see it as a sin. Yet God word on the subject is clear regarding this.
However the Lord truly loves all of us. We are to love everyone and not hate anyone.
Lastly
2 Peter 3:9 ESV
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance
Go watch the sermon by Pastor Cortez. That's love. And wisdom.
Hey a large number of the gay people I got to know did live very promiscuous lives or did in the past.
Which says a lot about you and the kind of people you spend time with. NOT about homosexuals in general. It is an error, every time, to extrapolate information on a group solely from the people you spend time with from that group.
Cherry picking the data set does not work. So stop doing it. And stop citing studies that willfully contrive to do it. The simple fact is when you compile data on the homosexual population AS A WHOLE, instead of cherry picking the data to get the "best" results.... you will find your accusations of promiscuity simply do not wash. Nor do figures about how many partners gay men have.
But what is telling is I asked you to present the ACTUAL study and show how they compiled their figures... what did you do? You failed to cite the actual study, ran away from the request, and cited an entirely different news paper article instead. Deflect much?
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
In addition
In addiction to WHAT? You have not offered anything yet except a commentary on the kinds of people you hang around with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
it is common for gay men not to practice safe sex. I know this as not all men use condoms in gay sex clubs and I used to go to them. I just don't need stats to look it up.
So you declare it is common but you "do not need stats"? So you are just making it up then? If it is "common" then you will have no issue presenting actual stats showing it is common.
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
Also another report to be presented at the conference shows close to 40 per cent of gay men admit having unprotected casual sex at least once in 2012.
Show me the report then. You have not done so. You have simply shown a news paper article commenting on the study. An article which also does not cite the report conveniently enough.
But without seeing the study itself we can not tell what is ACTUALLY in it. It would be far.... far far far..... FAR from the first time a news paper has willfully or mistakenly misrepresented the facts of a study.
For example how were the men in this study compiled. Were they specifically compiled from the HIV infected, in order to get the results desired? Or were they a fair and general cross section of the populace?
And what is the context of the figures in that study? Also not mentioned in the media spin article you cited. For example how many of the men are in long term relationships were there is no need to practice safe sex? Are such figures included to spin the figure higher?
Until you show the actual study, rather than some media spin based on the study, we have no way to evaluate what the figures ACTUALLY say. Which probably suits you and your agenda just fine.
I think he knew Mensaguy is a mod, and just tried to see how hard he could push. How thoroughly disingenuous.
I respect apologists that are straight forward a lot more, even if I disagree with them. There are a few, very few, like that on here. And good for them. I can think of a couple of christians, one mormon and one muslim of the top of my head that I would include in that group. They are genuine, make good arguments and never resort to the personal. They also don't avoid hard questions, but deal with them head on.
As a good friend of mine said, "That's a mensch".
I don't know if he knew that or not. One of the problems that come with being a Mod is feeling like I have to stay out of the conversations. I thought answering one direct question was simple, and I make no apology about being a strong defender of the US Constitution. so I answered the direct question with facts. Indisputable facts.
I don't want to derail any of the various thoughts weaving their way through this thread, but if anyone wants to see the factual response, send me a DM and I'll forward it to you.
The problem with this is that it is unevenly applied across "sins" and almost exclusively targets gays . . . while virtually ignoring all other "sins." That speaks of something else entirely than honest concern for a sinner. They have the right to feel . . . but NOT the right to harass, deny basic human rights, selectively denigrate, scorn, shun or otherwise mistreat gays. It is not merely strange . . . it is pathological.
Not only that, people have yet to show WHY homosexuality should be considered a sin, other than that they think their book said it is.
One can explain why adultery, gluttony, murder, theft, gossip, etc., are unloving. They harm people. But homosexuality ... nope. The only harm Christians can come up with about homosexuality is that they believe God hates people who aren't straight and is going to roast them in hell. In other words, a Chicken Little type harm which is all in their heads.
^ Indeed and this was an issue I brought up in post #138 on this thread.
It is the kind of propaganda we must resist when we are having discourse on homosexuality in our society. There exists people who are clearly biased against homosexuality but who have no actual arguments to present on the topic. So they use constructs like "Satan" to associate homosexuality with hate and "the adversary".
While we can rejoice that the arguments of the anti-homosexual have become this shrill and desperate and fetid, we must also be aware that such arguments from emotion and propaganda DO have an effect and we must highlight them when they arise.
Thankfully however there are "thinking" christians in the world too. Ones that do not just follow blindly what they THINK their god is saying in this arbitrary and vague book we call The Bible. Rather, they realize that if a god does exist then it is a supremely rational being and so if there is no rational support _what_so_ever_ for some interpretation of the Bible, then they reconsider whether their interpretation was right in the first place.
In other words they do not just read blindly their interpretation that god is against homosexuality. Rather they realize that there is no rational and useful arguments against homosexuality, so perhaps their reading of what they think gods opinion is, must be wrong, and there needs to be other ways to interpret the text.
Again: IF god exists and IF god is rational and IF god actually is against homosexuality.... THEN there must be rational and coherent arguments against homosexuality.
And given the lack of any rational arguments, much less from the two or three anti gay people on this thread, that there is anything morally problematic or "wrong" with homosexuality, then perhaps said Christians need to revisit some of the IFs in my chain and realize that in their excitement to speak on behalf of a god not speaking for itself, they might actually be putting words and opinions in it's mouth.
The following is a one hour sermon. After watching it, I a Christian for over fifty years, would count it as one of the five best sermons I've ever heard preached.
I agree, absolutely fantastic message. If you hear it and refuse to even consider what he says, it says more about you and your hardness than it does about Christ's love for all people.
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