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To this layman, although the words differ a lot, the meaning doesn't much.
To keep commandments = be sinless.
To wash your robes = cleanse yourself of sin.
you are a fishermen of men.
your bait?
reason and common sense.
And they clearly are not are not just words to you ... they are perspectives. Thats what he meant by "through me". Your claim holds up under more conditional changes and human experiences then most people's claims do. Be them atheist or theists.
if I ever rip you, tell me to reread your post because I am misunderstanding it. I have trouble reading computer screens. bad trouble. You know, ADD and all. Mix in some "flat out stupid" and poof, a real "shimdigger" on me part.
To this layman, although the words differ a lot, the meaning doesn't much.
To keep commandments = be sinless.
To wash your robes = cleanse yourself of sin.
This is totally wrong. Keeping the commandments does NOT make one sinless.
Even if one keeps them, he or she is still a sinner; and one may not cleanse
himself of sin, only Jesus and the Holy Spirit can do that.
The variance in this verse is discussed in the links I provided, and in other
books. The root lies in the visual, not rhetorical near-total identicality of a section of
the verse in the oldest manuscripts.
This is totally wrong. Keeping the commandments does NOT make one sinless.
Even if one keeps them, he or she is still a sinner; and one may not cleanse
himself of sin, only Jesus and the Holy Spirit can do that.
The variance in this verse is discussed in the links I provided, and in other
books. The root lies in the visual, not rhetorical near-total identicality of a section of
the verse in the oldest manuscripts.
So sayeth thou.
I'm not losing any sleep over whether I interpret biblical passages correctly or not. That's for you Christians to natter about.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
NIV
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city
There is no real difference or contradiction between the two. Jesus taught, "If you love me, you will obey my commandments" (this is the earthly action of following Christ ... because He is the Lord), but, we know that nobody enters heaven because they followed the law. Like James' teaching about "faith without works", the real issue here is not 'what' people do, but, "why they do it." The law was simply a tool to convict sinners of their sin and need for a Savior (Gal. 3:16), ... not a means of Salvation.
The second is the state of being in Christ, for example, Revelations 7:14, talks about those who "Washed their robes in the blood of the lamb" during the Great Tribulation. This was not talking about something one does with a washing machine, but, rather the heart level condition of those who truly trusted and believed in the Lord during their earthly lifetime. The evidence that one has 'washed their robes' will be found in their fruit (aka; works, obedience, submission); ... the fact that they sincerely and honestly attempted to live according to the teachings of Christ.
Actually...they probably aren't all that far off. They both indicate followers of Christ.
Far smarter people than I are familiar with the different textual variances, and they know the different branches of texts. I've been told that they are even able to distinguish between a particular scribe's handwriting style. It's that much of a science. It's not unreasonable to be able to go back and compare different generations of texts and be able to deduce when an error crept in.
This is another post that makes me think you aren't hopelessly sunk in fundamentalism. I reached the same conclusion you have in my slow conversion from fundamentalism.
There is no real difference or contradiction between the two. Jesus taught, "If you love me, you will obey my commandments" (this is the earthly action of following Christ ... because He is the Lord), but, we know that nobody enters heaven because they followed the law. Like James' teaching about "faith without works", the real issue here is not 'what' people do, but, "why they do it." The law was simply a tool to convict sinners of their sin and need for a Savior (Gal. 3:16), ... not a means of Salvation.
The second is the state of being in Christ, for example, Revelations 7:14, talks about those who "Washed their robes in the blood of the lamb" during the Great Tribulation. This was not talking about something one does with a washing machine, but, rather the heart level condition of those who truly trusted and believed in the Lord during their earthly lifetime. The evidence that one has 'washed their robes' will be found in their fruit (aka; works, obedience, submission); ... the fact that they sincerely and honestly attempted to live according to the teachings of Christ.
thanks for I believe substantially agreeing with what I think I had already said on page 2 of this thread with the same reference to Rev. 7:14, LOL. (seriously, it's nice to have someone else come to a seemingly similar conclusion on this point---but you probably expressed it better!!!).
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 03-20-2015 at 02:31 PM..
Reason: more info.
This is another post that makes me think you aren't hopelessly sunk in fundamentalism. I reached the same conclusion you have in my slow conversion from fundamentalism.
Good luck.
I've never suggested that there is not error in our modern translations. But the ORIGINAL texts are inerrant.
I've never suggested that there is not error in our modern translations. But the ORIGINAL texts are inerrant.
How many originals do you have?
Do you think that "inerrant" and "infallible" are in the original texts? Maybe liberals cut those important words out the Bibles we have now?
And, why, if inerrant and infallible are so very important, does not the Bible we have address them directly? Instead you quote verses that have nothing to do with those terms and then imbue the power of Words that ARE the Bible to mean your words that are NOT in the Bible.
So let us know when you find an Original. That concept (original) derived after conservatives began to become aware of tremendous differences between Masoteric and all the other translations. And the older texts show how much was added by copyists in the newer texts.
And the reason "Originals" argument is fallacious is quite obvious---we don't for certain that the name of the Mother of Jesus is Mary. Perhaps the first copyist put Mary down because he grew distracted and accidentally wrote the name of his wife or girlfriend.
Or what of the opposite. What if all copies show Mary but the original shows Priscilla. How are we to KNOW the Original doesn't have a factual error? We must instead ASSUME that since it is an Original we just know all of it is complete foolproof in God.
That sounds resoundingly familiar with fundamentalist arguments about creation, and ignore the direction of scientific evidence.
So you wish people to believe the copies are so close to the original that they are practically the same? The only problem is the closest full book is a centuries later. You don't know if there are factual errors in the copies or not. All you can do is ASSUME there are none.
So your beliefs regarding the Bible are based on a lot of assumption.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
I've never suggested that there is not error in our modern translations. But the ORIGINAL texts are inerrant.
Which means, no matter what the efforts that go into extracting what the original Q said, the simple fact is it just doesn't exist, so therefore no one can say that any parts of the NT is inerrant.
In other words, everything that people think their Bible says today, is speculation and not knowledge.
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