Letting your children decide for themselves about religion (tradition, agnostic, belief)
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The notion of letting a child choose speaks to a deep societal issue. We have become the culture of the child, where we dance around them banging tambourines, indulging their whims. Children are not adults. Never have been and never will be.
To use an analogy, if you allowed your child to choose his meals for himself, you could wind up with a child with a terrible diet. If you allowed your child to make his own decisions about education, the odds are good you'd have a functional illiterate on your hands. If you allowed your child to make his own decisions about sex, controlled substances, and a host of other social ills, you might wind up with a dead child.
Because even the smartest child doesn't necessarily possess wisdom, which comes from both one's life decisions and one's ability to observe of the effects of decisions made by others. In fact, I can pretty much say that it is the rare child who does. Instead, it is the job of the parent to equip that child with the ability to make wise decisions in anticipation of adult life.
So people who say "let the child choose" don't really understand children very well, nor do they understand being a parent. When it comes to matters of faith miss two very important points. First, the parents have the absolute right (And, I might add, responsibility) to imprint their values on the child.
Second, just letting the child choose essentially acts as an obstacle to the parents' own spiritual growth and religious life. I mean, if you're letting your six-year-old stay home from church, are you going to leave your child at home alone? Of course not, for that would be incredibly irresponsible. So then the parent has to stay home with the child, effectively allowing the child to dictate the parent's spiritual development. Or, conversely, if your precocious eleven-year-old suddenly wants to go hang out at a Catholic or Baptist church, that essentially means you'll have to take them.
And, God forbid, what if our three children had decided to take three different spiritual directions in life? In order to fulfill their whims, my wife and I would have spent Sunday mornings frantically trying to get our kids to whatever Church of What's Happening Now had the most appealing service to our eight year old. As a result, we would never get to attend our own church that has been such an important part of our family life.
In other words, the 'let my child choose for himself' sounds good and liberating for about five seconds, then becomes really dumb in practice. My house, my rules. Not because I'm some heavy-handed autocrat. But rather because I have a responsibility to the child and, ultimately, myself. When you become an adult, you are free to make those decisions about your life.
Given that many of us who believe in god think it's really dumb in practice to run to church in the first place, I find the idea that it'd be inconvenient to allow your child to experience their own spiritual journey to be a dumb reason to withhold it from them. I mean, god forbid they chose three different sports to play or three different instruments to learn. Egad, the inconvenience!
Because a child isn't smart enough to make good decisions is the EXACT reason they're so easy to brainwash. Food, drugs, education, sex...putting those on the same level as religion in their importance to their actual well-being and livelihood is a little dramatic and silly.
There should be zero reason you can't instill values without dragging them to a place where they'll essentially get peer-pressured via community and scary fairy tales into falling into line.
It has nothing to do with being overly child-centric.
I believe in god and I believe that my relationship with god is a private and personal one. I also believe that everyone of every age has the right to form this relationship on their own. Given the space and time to do so. Meanwhile, being a good person and doing the right thing has nothing to do with this process - it exists entirely independently from this conversation.
Given that many of us who believe in god think it's really dumb in practice to run to church in the first place, I find the idea that it'd be inconvenient to allow your child to experience their own spiritual journey to be a dumb reason to withhold it from them. I mean, god forbid they chose three different sports to play or three different instruments to learn. Egad, the inconvenience!
Because a child isn't smart enough to make good decisions is the EXACT reason they're so easy to brainwash. Food, drugs, education, sex...putting those on the same level as religion in their importance to their actual well-being and livelihood is a little dramatic and silly.
There should be zero reason you can't instill values without dragging them to a place where they'll essentially get peer-pressured via community and scary fairy tales into falling into line.
It has nothing to do with being overly child-centric.
I believe in god and I believe that my relationship with god is a private and personal one. I also believe that everyone of every age has the right to form this relationship on their own. Given the space and time to do so. Meanwhile, being a good person and doing the right thing has nothing to do with this process - it exists entirely independently from this conversation.
Let's test that notion. How many children do you have? Based on your notion that you don't need to go to church to be spiritual, what if the shoe is on the other foot? What if, say, you have two children that decided to attend two churches distinct from your own religious choice of staying at home on Sunday morning. How open will you be to schlepping them around town on Sunday morning? I'm guessing not very. In truth, you are likely imposing your own religious views on your child by not taking him as much as I am by doing so.
I mean, if you were actually serious in allowing your child to make his or her own religious choices, the first order of business would be exposing them to what their choices were. Otherwise, that business about "making their own choices" is just so much empty palaver. By staying home, you are making a conscious choice regarding your child's spiritual development on his behalf, one that is as heavy-handed as any parent who insists their children go.
Further, your analogy regarding sports and musical instruments really do not hold water. For if you are the parent of two or three children, you indeed have to make difficult choices about time and logistics. Because a parent driving a minivan simply cannot be in three different places at the same time, especially a three-hour window on Sunday morning. This seems to be outside of the realm of your experience because, otherwise, you would understand the choices parents of multiple children have to make every day. My wife and I, two busy professionals, had to give each of our children these choices. Volleyball or violin? Travel soccer or Boy Scouts? Band or lacrosse? There are only so many hours in a day you know, and fulfilling every whim of one's children is exhausting for the parent and, ultimately, unfulfilling for the child.
Mind you, your theory on raising children aligns conveniently with your spiritual notions. You believe that you don't need a church to form a relationship with God. And that's fine. But then there are those who believe that religious faith is both personal and communitarian. You go to church to forge relationships. You go to church to learn. You go to church to be supported and to support others in spiritual development. You go to church to be part of something larger and more permanent than yourself. Now, you might disagree with that approach, content to believe that you can find enlightenment on your own. But it's a view that lots of people hold, one that's no less valid than your own.
I guess what I really find objectionable is your mindless lumping together of all churches together as one step removed from Jim Jones. You will be amazed to learn that very large swaths of the Christian community do not preach fire and brimstone, do not spend time on 'scary fairy tales.' Instead, the bulk of Christian thought is wrapped up in understanding our role and our path in an often bewildering world. And you bandy about "peer pressure" as wrong when, in truth, it is an ethically neutral quality. For example, I'm pretty sure if peer pressure kept your child from uttering racial epithets or performing inconsiderate actions, you would likely approve of it. In fact, if you have a child and worry about the kind of friends he or she makes in life, you are actually subscribing to the notion of peer pressure while simultaneously decrying it.
Moving on, I can tell you are unfamiliar with the shape of Christian education for most children and teenagers, because you seem to indulge in stereotypes. My children's Christian formation have more often centered around ethical choices in the world and our responsibility to others, lessons that schools simply don't have time to teach. As a result of this influence in my children's lives, they are enthusiastic participants in activities such as:
• A rural summer camp that stresses math and reading to underprivileged children.
• An ongoing ministry that helps mentally-challenged adults enjoy nature.
• Efforts to help homeless families displaced by job loss, health issues, and other problems.
• Literacy programs.
• A health clinic in rural Haiti.
And the list goes on and on. None of these programs in our faith ram the Bible down the throats of their beneficiaries and perform far more efficiently than a government-operated counterpart. More importantly, my children volunteer for these activities when no amount of goading on my part could have persuaded them. Instead these programs run on volunteer efforts and are meaningful examples of Christianity in action in a broken world, giving material help to those who need it the most while teaching our children that we are responsible to others. At the same time, my children have learned priceless lessons about organization, leadership and how one's personal ethics can have a profound effect on the world around them.
And while I suppose a child can participate in similar programs through school and on their own, our Episcopal church provides both a coherent mechanism for a child to understand better his or her place in the world, while giving him the tools to make his or her own choices. We don't tell children what to think, but we certainly tell children what to think about. In that sense, our choice of where we go to church helps supplement the values my wife and I stand for in the world. It is not something separate from our parenting, but part and parcel of it.
My wife was not religious and neither am I. Both sets of grandparents were. My boys were exposed to church/religion via their grandparents and were supremely uninterested. ("I don't like that Jesus on the plus sign!")
I always encouraged thinking for themselves. Today, like perhaps most young adults, religion/God is at the bottom of their lists of things to contemplate. Yet both are fine, ethical, empathetic adults.
As my husband and I had very bad experiences of having the Christian religion, of the fundamentalist/Biblical literalist dogma, forced down our throats as children, we were determined our own kids would not be subjected to any pressure. As there is no evidence to support any religion it is up to the individual to decide for themselves. Our girls are Christians, one an Anglican Priest, fortunately they are not fundies/Biblical literalists which would be hard to take, but up to them of course.
Do other posters let their children decide for themselves?
Prov 22:6 Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it.
Parents who do it badly or wrongly, do not negate the imperative in scripture. Kids will always be influenced by good or bad parenting.
The notion of letting a child choose speaks to a deep societal issue. We have become the culture of the child, where we dance around them banging tambourines, indulging their whims. Children are not adults. Never have been and never will be.
To use an analogy, if you allowed your child to choose his meals for himself, you could wind up with a child with a terrible diet. If you allowed your child to make his own decisions about education, the odds are good you'd have a functional illiterate on your hands. If you allowed your child to make his own decisions about sex, controlled substances, and a host of other social ills, you might wind up with some serious issues. Hell, just read the news. It's littered with the results of parents giving children enough rope to hang themselves.
Mind you, this is when some smug, self-important parent will predictably brag about her child always eating a balanced diet, doing homework without being asked, and making wise decisions about his or her friends. To which I say, that's nice. You beat the odds.
Because even the smartest child doesn't necessarily possess wisdom, which comes from both one's life decisions and one's ability to observe of the effects of decisions made by others. In fact, I can pretty much say that it is the rare child who does. Instead, it is the job of the parent to equip that child with the ability to make wise decisions in anticipation of adult life.
So people who say "let the child choose" don't really understand children very well, nor do they understand being a parent. When it comes to childhood autonomy for matters of faith, the supporters miss two very important points. First, the parents have the absolute right (And, I might add, responsibility) to imprint their values on the child. I mean, if you have children, you are constantly communicating your world view to them in ways large and small. Every time you correct your child about not throwing something in the recycling bin, saying unkind words to another child, hitting the dog, or the other zillion typical childhood offenses, you impart your prevailing view of How Things Should Be In The World. So if you correct your child on how he thinks or acts in the world, yet you look askance at parents insisting on their children attending church with them, then you are guilty of hypocrisy.
Second, just letting the child choose essentially acts as an obstacle to the parents' own spiritual growth and religious life. I mean, if you're letting your six-year-old stay home from church, are you going to leave your child at home alone? Of course not, for that would be incredibly irresponsible. So, in order to fulfill some misguided ideal about a child choosing his spiritual path in life, the parent has to stay home with the child, effectively allowing the child to dictate the parent's spiritual development. Or, conversely, if your precocious eleven-year-old suddenly wants to go hang out at a Catholic or Baptist church, that essentially means you'll have to take them.
And, God forbid, what if our three children had decided to take three different spiritual directions in life? In order to fulfill their whims, my wife and I would have spent Sunday mornings frantically trying to get our kids to whatever Church of What's Happening Now had the most appealing service to our eight year old. As a result, we would never get to attend our own church that has been such an important part of our family life.
In other words, the 'let my child choose for himself' notion sounds good and liberating for about five seconds, then becomes really idiotic in practice. Nope, our house and our rules when it comes to how we worship. Not because we're heavy-handed autocrats. But rather because we have a responsibility to the child and, ultimately, myself. When you become an adult, you are free to make those decisions about your life.
As my husband and I had very bad experiences of having the Christian religion, of the fundamentalist/Biblical literalist dogma, forced down our throats as children, we were determined our own kids would not be subjected to any pressure. As there is no evidence to support any religion it is up to the individual to decide for themselves. Our girls are Christians, one an Anglican Priest, fortunately they are not fundies/Biblical literalists which would be hard to take, but up to them of course.
Do other posters let their children decide for themselves?
Ultimately, children do have a tendency to become adults, at which time they will decide for themselves.
As to what our responsibility should be when they are growing up, my personal feelings are that we should teach them what we believe and why, but strongly encourage respect for and an interest in any other religion they are inclined to want to explore.
As my husband and I had very bad experiences of having the Christian religion, of the fundamentalist/Biblical literalist dogma, forced down our throats as children, we were determined our own kids would not be subjected to any pressure. As there is no evidence to support any religion it is up to the individual to decide for themselves. Our girls are Christians, one an Anglican Priest, fortunately they are not fundies/Biblical literalists which would be hard to take, but up to them of course.
Do other posters let their children decide for themselves?
If you are a responsible parent:
You don't let your children have ultimate say-so your house or your neighborhood.
You don't let your children choose what they can watch on television.
You don't let your children choose all your vacations.
You don't let your children dictate your friends and social life.
You don't let your children tell you what chores will or won't get done.
You don't let your children determine what schoolwork they will or will not do.
You don't let your children constantly veto what you're cooking for dinner.
You don't let your children have the final decision in a host of family decisions, large and small.
Yet, suddenly, when it comes to matters of faith, we're suddenly supposed to be hands-off? Does that make any sense at all? So, sorry. It doesn't work that way. The "let your child choose" school of thought is a bit of a smoke screen for not going at all. Hey, if you don't want to attend church, knock yourself out. But don't try and say it's for the good of the child when it's really for the good of you.
You don't let your children have ultimate say-so your house or your neighborhood.
You don't let your children choose what they can watch on television.
You don't let your children choose all your vacations.
You don't let your children dictate your friends and social life.
You don't let your children tell you what chores will or won't get done.
You don't let your children determine what schoolwork they will or will not do.
You don't let your children constantly veto what you're cooking for dinner.
You don't let your children have the final decision in a host of family decisions, large and small.
Yet, suddenly, when it comes to matters of faith, we're suddenly supposed to be hands-off? Does that make any sense at all? So, sorry. It doesn't work that way. The "let your child choose" school of thought is a bit of a smoke screen for not going at all. Hey, if you don't want to attend church, knock yourself out. But don't try and say it's for the good of the child when it's really for the good of you.
We never took our children to a church. It has nothing to do with their faith or beliefs.
We allowed them to choose what they wanted to watch on television and they took turns deciding.
They always had input into vacations. After all we enjoyed them as a family.
They were always part of our social life along with our friends and their children.
Chores were negotiated. No biggie. Never an issue. The world never ended if the dishes were left
School work was done together. Never an issue.
Don't like what I cook? There was always peanut butter and jelly.
Family decisions were decided as a family as they got older. That is what families do.
As for personal decisions as a couple? They remained with us and our children were not consulted.
When their friends invited them to church, we had no issue. None of them enjoyed it, and after the first time, they chose not to go again. We were fine with their choice.
My children never minded helping out at the local food bank or Special Olympics, Habitat for Humanity, clothing drives, or MADD. I consider it a much better use of their free time.
We never took our children to a church. It has nothing to do with their faith or beliefs.
We allowed them to choose what they wanted to watch on television and they took turns deciding.
They always had input into vacations. After all we enjoyed them as a family.
They were always part of our social life along with our friends and their children.
Chores were negotiated. No biggie. Never an issue. The world never ended if the dishes were left
School work was done together. Never an issue.
Don't like what I cook? There was always peanut butter and jelly.
Family decisions were decided as a family as they got older. That is what families do.
As for personal decisions as a couple? They remained with us and our children were not consulted.
When their friends invited them to church, we had no issue. None of them enjoyed it, and after the first time, they chose not to go again. We were fine with their choice.
My children never minded helping out at the local food bank or Special Olympics, Habitat for Humanity, clothing drives, or MADD. I consider it a much better use of their free time.
I've already anticipated this kind of response in an earlier post on this thread, thanks. And all that's nice. But if you were a couple who attended church regularly prior to having children, a couple who holds to communitarian values, then your approach is actually one of letting the child dictate to the parents what the family's religious life will be like, forcing the parents to alter their spirituality based on the whims of a child. For no parent in good conscience can toodle off to church on Sunday morning, leaving the eight-year-old behind. And, as I already stated, you are actually as much making a religious decision on the part of your children by not going as going.
I've already anticipated this kind of response in an earlier post on this thread, thanks. And all that's nice. But if you were a couple who attended church regularly prior to having children, a couple who holds to communitarian values, then your approach is actually one of letting the child dictate to the parents what the family's religious life will be like, forcing the parents to alter their spirituality based on the whims of a child. For no parent in good conscience can toodle off to church on Sunday morning, leaving the eight-year-old behind. And, as I already stated, you are actually as much making a religious decision on the part of your children by not going as going.
I did not have children to dictate to them. I did not have children so they would dictate to me either. I find the notion astonishing and disturbing. Do you dictate to your children?
We had children because we had an abundance of love, and energy to devote to raising them.
We raised them without church. And yes. When they told us they were not interested in going back to a friends church, we respected their desire and decision. We allowed them the same with after school activities and lessons too.
There is nothing wrong with giving into a whim, or two of a child either. They are children, not prisoners.
As adults, they are free to do what ever they wish. They are a bunch of funny, creative, successful human beings. Where did we go wrong? sniff....
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sniff....
