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Greetings, Birdy_56: Yes, I can tell you what katartizo (fitted) means in the koine Greek. 1n 1 Timothy 4:10 it is found in the participial form (katertismena--accusative, plural, neuter, perfect, passive participle from katartizo). The significant thing here is the voice of this participle. Is it a middle voice or a passive voice? Some who would make it a middle voice (reflexive) want to give some participation on the one who is "fitted" for destruction. In other words, they would claim that Romans 9:22 has the meaning of "having prepared or fitted themselves to destruction." If people can fit themselves to destruction, then they can unfit themselves to destruction! But is that what Paul is teaching here?
According to Daniel Wallace (my Greek instructor for four years at Grace Theological Seminary) in his book, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (pp. 417-18), this direct middle concept has its roots in Chrysostom and later in Pelagius. Wallace argues that
1. "grammatically, the direct middle is quite rare and is used almost exclusively in certain idiomatic expressions, especially where the verb is used consistently with such a notion (as in the verbs for putting on clothes). This is decidedly not the case with katartizo: nowhere else in the NT does it occur as direct middle."
2. "in the perfect tense, the middle-passive form is always to be taken as a passive in the NT."
3. "the lexical nuance of katartizo, coupled with the perfect tense, suggests something of a "done deal" (emphasis mine). Although some commentators suggest that the verb means that the vessels are ready for destruction, both the lexical nuance of complete preparation and the grammatical nuance of the perfect tense are against this."
This is clearly a perfect PASSIVE participle--"the having been prepared one for destruction." God prepared some to be vessels of destruction forever. Why do you find fault with God's determined will here, Birdy_56? Are you not talking back to God and denying what He has clearly said?
4. "the context argues strongly for a passive and completed notion [emphasis mine]. In v 20 the vessel is shaped by God's will, not its own ("will that which is molded say to its maker, 'Why have you made me this way?'"). In v 21, Paul asks a question with ouk (thus expecting a positive answer): Is not the destiny of the vessels (one for honor, one for dishonor) entirely predetermined by their Creator? Verse 22 is the answer to that question. To argue, then, that katertismena is a direct middle seems to fly in the face of grammar (the normal use of the voice and tense), lexeme, and context."
Much thanks to Dr. Wallace. Fitted (katartizw) is indeed the perfect passive participle of katartizw, and katartizw is clearly defined by Dr. James Strong as was presented.
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As for malista--Paul is clearly teaching a distinction between how God is the Savior of all men and how He is the Savior of those who believe.
Most assuredly! There is indeed a distinction: our God is the Saviour of all mankind, but especially those who believe, or place their trust in Him.
Especially=
1. Exceptionally: to an unusual or exceptional degree.
2. Particularly: Used to single out one among a range.
3. Chiefly: In most cases
4. Expressly: for a particular or specific purpose.
To a distinctly greater extent or degree than is common.
To a degree or extent deserving special emphasis (particularly).
Particulary/ exceptionally/ markedly/ chiefly.
Malista=
Chiefly
Most of all.
Above all.
Malista does not mean monos or monon!
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He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and not for our sins ONLY/monos/ monon, but for the sins of the whole world.
Jesus Christ is the Mercy-Seat for our sins and the sins of the whole world.
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I mean the point of all this toiling and battling is that we have put our trust in the living God and He is the Saviour of the whole human race, but particulary of believers. -New Testament Of The Jerusalem Bible-
The Word [is] full of faith (or: Faithful {Trustworthy} [is] the word) and worthy of all welcomed reception, for into this [end] are we continuously working hard unto weariness, and are continuously struggling in the contest (contending for the prize; other MSS being reproached), because we have placed our expectation (hope) and thus rely upon a living God (or: upon [the] living God), who is (exists being) [the] Savior (Deliverer; Rescuer; Restorer to health and wholeness) of all mankind - especially of believers (of ones full of faith and trust; of faithful ones)!
Only those who are born again by the will of the Father are ultimately saved.
Preterist
The fact is our God has determinded by His own sovereign will, and according to "His good pleasure", or "in agreement with the design He had in mind, to unite the all/ the ta pavnte into Christ Jesus the Lord. He has "purposed in Himself" that the all within the heavens and the all within the earth shall be summarized in His beloved Son...the all, the ta pavnte. That would be the whole enchilada, both the first-fruits (elect) and the rest of the harvest!
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He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will.
Yes, He is a wonderful God. All whom the Father gives the Son come to Him and none are lost--even though they might go astray. You will notice that Christ goes after His sheep and not a goat! Those IN Adam are the goats; those IN Christ are His sheep. It was for His SHEEP only that He gave His life and shed His blood. ALL are saved who are IN Christ (John 6).
Christ will find ALL the lost sheep whom the Father has given Him. He is not in the business of going after goats!
Preterist
Nonsense! The goats and the sheep are both His flock. In fact, goats are a clean animal, not unclean a.k.a. swine or dogs. The context for the sheep and the goats is following the virgins and the servants of the master. Do you know that in the Catacombs the Master is carrying a young goat on His shoulder? It is so!
Salvador Mundi: Samuel Cox
St. Matthew 25:31-46
Here you must observe that the passage is a parable; and that the parable is concerning nations, not individual men, as our Lord Himself tells us at the very onset (verse 32):
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And before Him shall be gathered all nations, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from his goats.
Goats Dear As Sheep
You must also remember, if you intend to found any conclusion on the parable, or to infer from words spoken of nations conclusions which touch the lot and fate of individual men, that the Judge is here set forth in the tender and familiar form of a Shepherd: that to the Eastern shepherd his goats are well-nigh, if not quite, as dear as his sheep; and that the left hand of a Judge or Ruler is the next best place to his right hand. Nay, more, you must mark--and this is a point which does not appear in our Authorized Version--that our Lord speaks in a certain gentle and kindly, even in a pitiful and caressing tone, of those who are ranged on the left hand of the Judge. The words he uses for them is not "goats." In verse 32, he speaks of the Shepherd as dividing his sheep, not from His goats, but from his "kids"; and in verse 33, he takes a still tenderer tone, and speaks of the Shepherd-Judge as setting His sheep on His right hand, but His "kidlings" - diminutive of kids, and, like all such diminutives, an expression of affection - on His left.
These considerations, these hints of mercy and compassion, may well make us careful as to the conclusions we deduce from this great passage. And even when the veil of parable falls aside, and when we seem to get clear and distrinct statements, at least on the fate of nations, if not on that of their individual units, we have still to remember that the Judge is depicted as rendering to everyone the due reward of his deeds, and of all his deeds. It is implied that if anyone has so much as given a cup of cold water to the least of Christ's brethren, he, though himself not a brother, shall in no wise lose His reward.
Numbers 18:17 "But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD."
Goats are clean animals. If you look in the OT, consistently it makes statements such as the one in Exodus 12:5: "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:"
The lamb for the sacrifice could come from sheep or goats. Goats are clean. If goats are a clean animal that doesn't need redeeming throughout Scripture, why would He suddenly change His mind that they are unclean in this one instance? (Matt. 25)
Much thanks to Dr. Wallace. Fitted (katartizw) is indeed the perfect passive participle of katartizw, and katartizw is clearly defined by Dr. James Strong as was presented.
Most assuredly! There is indeed a distinction: our God is the Saviour of all mankind, but especially those who believe, or place their trust in Him.
Especially=
1. Exceptionally: to an unusual or exceptional degree.
2. Particularly: Used to single out one among a range.
3. Chiefly: In most cases
4. Expressly: for a particular or specific purpose.
To a distinctly greater extent or degree than is common.
To a degree or extent deserving special emphasis (particularly).
Particulary/ exceptionally/ markedly/ chiefly.
Malista=
Chiefly
Most of all.
Above all.
Malista does not mean monos or monon!
Jesus Christ is the Mercy-Seat for our sins and the sins of the whole world.
Again, where did you study Greek? I studied for four years and continue to study. What have I learned? I have learned most of all that it takes more than just looking at reference books such as dictionaries and concordances to support one's position on such things under consideration. My study of Greek has taught me how much I do NOT know about Greek. It is a very humbling experience. I brought up the Greek here only because you did first.
I rarely, if ever, resort to using the Greek apart from my own personal study. For one thing, most people you address on these boards have not studied Greek. I find it rude to make reference to things they have not had a chance to learn. That does not make them less than able to properly exegete the Word. I am also aware that even the scholarly research done by Daniel Wallace is not unopposed. There are other scholars who do not agree with him.
Don't get me wrong--words studies are profitable but must never be used to force a meaning upon a text, especially if a verse is being exegeted out of context. One word can have many legitimate meanings--it is the context that determines which one is to be employed where!
Again, this issue is about who God is and not about the meaning of malista. I suspect, but cannot prove, that most who appeal to this word to promote their universalism do so not because they have first found the Scriptures to clearly teach universalism but because they have predetermined from their own human desires that the Scriptures teach it and then set about to find support for it in word studies, tenses, and voices!
Universalists begin with the preconceived idea that THEIR God would simply not behave in a certain way. THEIR God of love would never send anyone to hell. THEIR God would save all people. That is not the God of the Bible. Universalists are guilty of the same judgment upon God that Paul addressed in Romans 9. You seek to zero in on one word or two and you end up missing the forest for the trees! The whole context of Romans 9 speaks of God's absolute and total sovereignty in the matter of salvation. God has elected some to be vessels of honors and others to be vessels of dishonor. They did not make themselves such; God, the Potter, after the counsel of His own will, made them such (fitted them for destruction). No one has anything to say about it. You can cry foul all you want, ignore the many verses that oppose any possibility of universalism, and create your docrtrines from those verses which appear to support you, but the bottom line is that you are accusing God of unrigteousness--not by His standards of righteousness but by your own. That is a very dangerous thing, my friend.
By the way, where did you get Dr. Strong's understanding of katartizo?
Universalists begin with the preconceived idea that THEIR God would simply not behave in a certain way. THEIR God of love would never send anyone to hell. THEIR God would save all people. That is not the God of the Bible. Universalists are guilty of the same judgment upon God that Paul addressed in Romans 9. You seek to zero in on one word or two and you end up missing the forest for the trees! The whole context of Romans 9 speaks of God's absolute and total sovereignty in the matter of salvation. God has elected some to be vessels of honors and others to be vessels of dishonor. They did not make themselves such; God, the Potter, after the counsel of His own will, made them such (fitted them for destruction). No one has anything to say about it. You can cry foul all you want, ignore the many verses that oppose any possibility of universalism, and create your docrtrines from those verses which appear to support you, but the bottom line is that you are accusing God of unrigteousness--not by His standards of righteousness but by your own. That is a very dangerous thing, my friend.
Hi, as a Christian who believes in the eventual restoration of all to God, my concept of God comes from the scriptures. The scriptures teach that God is agape love, that it was His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself, that He accomplishes whatever He purposes to do, that He will subject all to Himself in the end so that He indeed may be all in all, that the creation is to be delivered from the slavery to corruption and changed into the glorious freedom of the children of God. I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God and this is why I believe that He will win vessels of honor and vessels prepared for destruction, to Himself, and draw all to Himself. There is nothing that God cannot accomplish. He has all power and He has already made Jesus heir of all things. (Hebrews 1) Yes, God gave all men to Jesus
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As for malista--Paul is clearly teaching a distinction between how God is the Savior of all men and how He is the Savior of those who believe. This distinction is not uncalculated. Christ's death on the cross is the only thing that can draw men to Him and afford them salvation
The problem here is that Calvinists who believe that God has predestined some for everlasting life and that He has predestined others for everlasting hell, do not believe that Jesus died for all men (from the ones that I have interacted with) or that God is the Savior of all men. How can God be the Savior of all men, if some men (the majority) never have a chance for salvation? How is the cross beneficial to them? God is the Savior of all men, yet He never plans to never give some (the majority) the opportunity for salvation? It is a contradiction, Preterist. God is not the Savior of anyone that He intentionally brings into existence to burn in an everlasting hell with no hope for salvation. But the scriptures teach that God is the Savior of all men. It was His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself. (Colossians 1)
God bless.
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The fact is our God has determinded by His own sovereign will, and according to "His good pleasure", or "in agreement with the design He had in mind, to unite the all/ the ta pavnte into Christ Jesus the Lord. He has "purposed in Himself" that the all within the heavens and the all within the earth shall be summarized in His beloved Son...the all, the ta pavnte. That would be the whole enchilada, both the first-fruits (elect) and the rest of the harvest!
Isaiah 25:6-8
The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7. And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8. He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the LORD has spoken
Amen.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 05-05-2009 at 02:01 PM..
Hello Shana.
As I was reading this a blog came to mind someone wrote and I responded to. I have blogged it here for you to read under "Blog and response". A study the Lord has given me passion about. "Salvation, Choice or Chosen?"
It is really a blessing to know someone is listening to the Holy Spirit.
God Bless You,
Mercy
Thank you, Mercy, for your kind words. I would like to read the Blog and Response. Can you tell me where it is located? I am mainly familiar with the forums. Thanks and God bless.
Again, where did you study Greek? I studied for four years and continue to study. What have I learned? I have learned most of all that it takes more than just looking at reference books such as dictionaries and concordances to support one's position on such things under consideration. My study of Greek has taught me how much I do NOT know about Greek. It is a very humbling experience. I brought up the Greek here only because you did first.
My study of the Eternal God has taught me how little I know of anything. His ways are exceedingly above all that we can ask or think! My goodness, I cannot even define Pi to 250 billion digits.
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I rarely, if ever, resort to using the Greek apart from my own personal study. For one thing, most people you address on these boards have not studied Greek. I find it rude to make reference to things they have not had a chance to learn. That does not make them less than able to properly exegete the Word. I am also aware that even the scholarly research done by Daniel Wallace is not unopposed. There are other scholars who do not agree with him.
Most of the people on these boards have little knowledge of Greek or ancient Hebrew. And much, much worse, have limited knowledge of the ways of the Father. I have only walked with Him for a few years now, slightly more than a Jubilee cycle, but very much aware how little has managed to filter through to the inner man. But God!
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Don't get me wrong--words studies are profitable but must never be used to force a meaning upon a text, especially if a verse is being exegeted out of context. One word can have many legitimate meanings--it is the context that determines which one is to be employed where!
Context, context, context! Do you know how many times the Master of the Reconciliation spoke words from the Old Covenant that leaves you scratching your little head in amazement and wonder? The servant of the Lord, Andrew Jukes, wrote a tremendous work called the Mystery of the Kingdom, in which he enunciates the wonder of the Christ. That, however, is for another link and another day.
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Again, this issue is about who God is and not about the meaning of malista. I suspect, but cannot prove, that most who appeal to this word to promote their universalism do so not because they have first found the Scriptures to clearly teach universalism but because they have predetermined from their own human desires that the Scriptures teach it and then set about to find support for it in word studies, tenses, and voices!
Actually, Preterist, there is but one way into the knowledge of the Holy, and it is not by word studies or anything else pertaining to this realm. It is by the unction of the Holy Ghost & He who baptizes with fire, the same fire that swirls in the flaming sword of the Lord!
"No man can receive anything accept it be given him from above."
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Universalists begin with the preconceived idea that THEIR God would simply not behave in a certain way.
If so, those nasty universalists are doomed from the beginning! If however, they have sat in the Presence for a mite, their lives have had a radical transformation by the Living One as He has changed them from one degree of glory, to another and another.
THEIR God of love would never send anyone to hell.
God is love, that is the essence of who He is! Everything of His purposes flow from His essence, and love never ever fails!
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THEIR God would save all people. That is not the God of the Bible.
Au contraire. The Living One declares that He "willeth all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth". He further bids us, in union with His Name, to pray for the salvation of all mankind. I believe in a God who raises the dead, and the one who answers prayer.
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Universalists are guilty of the same judgment upon God that Paul addressed in Romans 9. You seek to zero in on one word or two and you end up missing the forest for the trees! The whole context of Romans 9 speaks of God's absolute and total sovereignty in the matter of salvation.
The Living One is supreme! His will stands! He is the absolute and total Sovereign! He is not only the Source, He is the Goal of all that is. The ta pavnte!
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God has elected some to be vessels of honors and others to be vessels of dishonor. They did not make themselves such; God, the Potter, after the counsel of His own will, made them such (fitted them for destruction).
Our God's election stands!
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No one has anything to say about it. You can cry foul all you want, ignore the many verses that oppose any possibility of universalism, and create your docrtrines from those verses which appear to support you, but the bottom line is that you are accusing God of unrigteousness--not by His standards of righteousness but by your own. That is a very dangerous thing, my friend.
His standards stand quite intact! The prophets of the Most High I am sure are mistaken, when they speak of apokatastasis, but I would not want to stake by Birdbrain life on it!
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By the way, where did you get Dr. Strong's understanding of katartizo?
Preterist
My friend, since you have taken the time to respond to an old codger, I shall disclose the sources to you on the next post.
Yes, He is a wonderful God. All whom the Father gives the Son come to Him and none are lost--even though they might go astray. You will notice that Christ goes after His sheep and not a goat! Those IN Adam are the goats; those IN Christ are His sheep. It was for His SHEEP only that He gave His life and shed His blood. ALL are saved who are IN Christ (John 6).
Christ will find ALL the lost sheep whom the Father has given Him. He is not in the business of going after goats!
Preterist
Did you foget ALL mankind was in Adam:therefore, all mankind were goats at one time.
1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Seems to me He is also the propitiation for the sins of the whole wolrd and not just the sins of the sheep.
And here is a great set of scriptures that shows us that He went after the gentiles who were at one time NOT His sheep.
Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
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