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In Revelation 14 this is the great wrath of God , where there are two groups of people , the hundred and forty and four thousand which are the Israelites who were redeemed by the shadow of Jesus , and then there are the saints who keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus , all of these will sleep on this day and be raised up by God in the resurrection of the body of Christ , as this is the rapture
You see that's just a label that they throw. What do you mean a dispensational point of view? The word dispensation is a New Testament word Paul said was committed on him the dispensation of the grace of God, the dispensation of the mysteries. It simply means a stewardship. It simply a term that's all and it is not, I mean this is the accusation over and over again the dispensationalism popped up with Jay N. Darby and C. I. Scofield and all that, but we're not working our way through a system, but rather attempting to interpret Scripture on its own merit.
Okay, you have some basic things to deal with. Dispensationalism, by the way, is simply a title for theology that recognizes a literal nation Israel to be restored in the future and recognizes a literal kingdom and a literal tribulation and a literal return and a literal rapture and that is dispensational. The other perspective is what's called non-dispensational or covenant theology, which has no place for Israel, no kingdom in the future and spiritualizes everything rather than making it literal. Okay?
Now what you have to do is go back to some very basic things. Okay. Dispensation simply means that God manages things in a certain way at a certain time.
Now what it boils down to in dispensational theology is that we believe that when God says something He means it and He means exactly what He said and we don't want to take the liberty to spiritualize it. For example, I heard Edmond Clowny, the President of Westminster Seminary preach on Isaiah 9 and he preached on the government shall be on His shoulder. And his sermon was: Is the Government of Your Life on the Shoulders of Christ? He preached a whole sermon on that. That passage has absolutely nothing to do with the government of my life. That's talking about the government of the world, and it's talking about a millennial kingdom, but if you don't want to have a millennial kingdom then you're stuck with making it a personal thing and you have it over and over again.
Now in the Old Testament repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, the Bible says God has a place for the nation Israel. "I will not forget Jerusalem. With my right hand looses its cunning," etc. etc. God says, "I will never, my word will never return void. It will always accomplish that which I sent it. I will fulfill my covenant to David forever and ever." Right? "I will restore my people," Romans 11, "as God set aside Israel whom he foreknew, God forbid." We take that literally. We say there is a kingdom for Israel. There is a kingdom for Israel. The non-dispensationalist says, "No Israel forfeited its kingdom in the execution of the Messiah.
The church is the new Israel. We are the Israel of God. There's no literal kingdom. Everything is spiritual." And they go back into the Old Testament, take that theology, read it back into the Old Testament and reinterpret all of the Old Testament promises as spiritual promises to the church and eliminate Israel. And so you take John Stott, no less a scholar than John Stott, he's in Switzerland, student stands up in a seminar, "What is the significance of Israel's return to the land today?" and his answer is, "It has absolutely no significance at all." But you see he has to say that for his theology sake even though it's ridiculous because he doesn't know any Hivites, Jebusites, Amorites, Malacites, Moabites, Perizzites, but there's an awful lot of Israelites around.
Why? Why? My grandfather wrote a track called Why You Can't Wipe out the Jew; because God isn't finished with them. And that's all dispensationalism affirms.
If you have a literal kingdom then you're going to have a literal beginning of the kingdom and then you're going to have a literal return, then you're going to work with a literal tribulation and a literal rapture. That's all, and when you get into the tribulation you either believe that the rapture comes at the beginning, the middle or the end. The end is impossible.
I believe the most impossible is the post tribulation rapture. It's impossible because you just removed everybody from the earth, wiped out all the unbelievers, whose left for the kingdom? You got nobody. I mean a mid-tribulation would be better, but I don't think that's right either. Because Jesus is to come when no man thinks He's coming, right? He's to come imminently. We're not looking for signs. We're looking for Christ. The blessed hope is not that the tribulation is coming. The blessed hope is that Jesus is coming. So I mean these people who want to stick around are going to be very disappointed when they all leave in the rapture. But does that help you to kind of see it?
Good post. Dispensations are the backbone of God's plan for the ages (ages are not dispensations) in which God deals in different ways with different groups of people at different times in history (Gentiles, Israel, Church, the Millennial kingdom). There have been several dispensations in human history.
Currently we are in the dispensation of the church which is an intercalation, meaning that the age of Israel has temporarily been put on hold until the Church-age has completed with the rapture of the church. Then, at some point after the rapture of the church, the last seven years of Daniels 490 year prophecy will commence. Those seven years are the Tribulation which will begin with the signing of a peace treaty with Israel (a covenant with the many [Daniel 9:27]) by the prince who is to come [Dan. 9:26] (the man of lawlessness in 2 Thess. 2:3-8; the antichrist). The Tribulation is the last seven years of the age of Israel. But not the end of Israel. It is in the Millennial kingdom which Jesus will set up when He returns that God will fulfill the promises made to Abraham, i.e. the Abrahamic, Land, Davidic covenants, and the New Covenant to Israel.
It is good to see someone who can read and understand what the words of the bible actually say. So many choose not to accept the "middle wall of partition" has been removed and a "new man" called the Church, the Body of Christ exist today and will for a time.
I understand this view, but I am sympathetic to a physical remnant principle - God always preserves one - those who are faithful to Hashem under the law. The church is a western concept. We should really all be down at the synagogue on a Saturday morning if Acts is anything to go by. I'm serious. I'm all for reclaiming first century BOC reality, without the lions.
Church is even a pagan word, and in the spirit of such, it is offensive when used to imply exclusivity of the body of Christ, which are the ecclesia / assembly - the called out ones. Called out, but not exclusive - indeed, inclusive.
The tribulation is meant to try the Circumcision believers of Israel. They have to remain faithful to the end. The uncircumcision believers of the nations need no such trial by tribulation since we are under grace. This is why are meet the Lord in the air prior to the tribulation and the Circumcision believers remain firmly on the earth. They will enter into the kingdom on earth when Christ takes out the Antichrist.
We disagree. I am Amillenial and believe the reign of Christ to be going on right now. Tribulation is now, though we see very little of it in the US. No rapture, no second chance.
Somehow I would have expected Christ to be doing a better job in His reign than what is going on today.
"We", whatever that is, was brought to God by the workings of His Spirit and Jesus
Christ, His Son. The ancient Hebrews and Israelites were only special in the regard
that they were the tribe of people on whom God chose to incarnate our Savior.
There were truths in other religions and tribes of men, not just the Hebrews, yet
they were appointed for a special reason. Where those tribes spread out in antiquity
and all time since is a matter for anthropologists and historians. There is much which
can be learnt of that, yet it is not of saving essence, it is still required reading for
anyone who believes the fallacy that "Jews" of today are "more special" than anyone else.
"Dispensations" are made too much of by some Protestant sects. For example,
some believe the Seven Churches in the Apocalypse represent a linear succession
of "Church Ages", and we are in the last one. Your final statement is not Biblical,
nor Christian. No Christian will ever be "brought to God" by a Jew again. They are
going to honor the Antichrist and all but a remnant are likely to be damned.
I really don't concern myself with who resides in Israel today for that is of no consequence to the present dispensation of Grace nor of my salvation which I believe you mentioned.
I understand this view, but I am sympathetic to a physical remnant principle - God always preserves one - those who are faithful to Hashem under the law. The church is a western concept. We should really all be down at the synagogue on a Saturday morning if Acts is anything to go by. I'm serious. I'm all for reclaiming first century BOC reality, without the lions.
Church is even a pagan word, and in the spirit of such, it is offensive when used to imply exclusivity of the body of Christ, which are the ecclesia / assembly - the called out ones. Called out, but not exclusive - indeed, inclusive.
Act's is a book of transition so it depends on which time period in Act's one chooses to live in I suppose. In Act's I see the changing of the dispensations from that of Law or Prophecy to the current of Grace, the Church, the Body of Christ.
The whole idea of Dispensationalism justifies many traditional Christian teachings, such as belief in the Trinity. He didn't "dispense" of knowledge of the Trinity until a certain time in history.
The fact that Christians (or anyone) didn't believe in something in the past, doesn't matter. Because God chose not to reveal it to us until later! Isn't that wonderful! Praise Jesus!
So you see, whatever most Christians believe in at this moment is exactly what the truth must be. So they can contradict themselves because of Dispensationalism.
Somehow I would have expected Christ to be doing a better job in His reign than what is going on today.
Really? As if he reports to you? Or me? So when Jesus said in Mark 1, "Repent and believe the Gospel, for the Kingdom of God is at hand" are you saying he should have followed up on that? Maybe with a "C'mon guys, I'm supposed to be the king!" Remember that his is not a failed earthly kingdom. we are only passing through here. Just because things aren't perfect in your little sphere doesn't mean that Christ is not ruling. Why do you hold Him to a higher standard than you hold yourself? He rules and reigns to glorify the creator, not the creature.
We disagree. I am Amillenial and believe the reign of Christ to be going on right now. Tribulation is now, though we see very little of it in the US. No rapture, no second chance.
Hi Electron,
I am curious why you believe that since Satan has to be locked up during the millennial reign of Christ and righteousness is to cover the earth and the twelve apostles are to reign over the 12 tribes of Israel during that time AND during that time the believers of the nations are not even on the earth but are with Christ among the celestials.
How can Christ be on the earth and among the celestials at the same time? It has to do with flesh and spirit.
In flesh Christ will be on the earth while at the same time we will be with Him in spirit among the celestials.
I don't believe in second chances or even first chances. God doesn't save by chance but by choice, His choice of us before the disruption.
One last point, prior to His return--besides all the horrendous events which must take place as revealed in Matthew 24--there must also be a word-wide catastrophic earthquake in which the cities of the nations fall (see Rev.16:18,19) which has never happened.
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