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I am not sure we are understanding each other. As for the former dispensation, God chose the nation Israel and gave them the law and it was through them that the nations could come to God. Today things are not the same. There is "one new man" made up of both Jew and Gentile. In the next dispensation, when the kingdom is restored to Israel they will be the blessing to the nations God had wanted them to be prior to their rejection of their messiah and the setting aside of Israel for this dispensation.
I really thought we hit it off on tithing, , but this is going downhill. ...just joking.
If it's the 'one new man' season (2000years; 2 days; 2 weeks) then the paradigm has shifted from natural Israel to spiritual Israel. There's no going back to a physical manifestation of a Kingdom. (Even if one has a soft spot for physical Israel., and yes, even if they are a prophetic indicator of the times or of fulfilled prophecies, etc., etc.). My understanding of manifest sonship and a non literal interpretation of Revelation came on leaps and bounds when I found J Preston Eby's website Kingdom Bible Ministries, a couple of years ago. I think it's your time my friend.
That's about right. Just checking. If I knew how to add a picture to a post I would share what I carry with me all the time to explain this. Here is a link to it. https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/q0...f_prophecy.gif
Pfft! What do you mean 'about' right?!? I'm a snotty know it all Calvinist, remember? It's exactly right!!! LOL
The 144,000 are those, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, who come to Christ when He sets foot on Mt. Zion when He sets up His millennial reign.
Ok Eusebius, sorry for taking so long, and this will likely take several posts to get through. I didn't get into my notes like I wanted to last night. Mrs. E lost an alternator and my faithful upright freezer crapped out last night, so, I got a little distracted.
Anyway, there are several issues or, irregularities with this list. First, this list, in this form, is not repeated anywhere else in the Bible. The order and names are unique. It is out of birth order. Judah, Rueben, then the sons of the concubines, then the sons of the legitimate wife, then the other wife. Joseph is on the list, indicating that the list is of the sons of Jacob, not the tribes of Israel. But then again Manasseh is on the list, indicating tribes and not sons. Ephraim didn't make the list, pointing to tribes and not sons. Dan is excluded, and I ain't got a clue why. It can't be a literal list.
I'm tracking. I get what you're saying, just can't accept it. No condemnation in Romans 8:1 I believe refers to eternal condemnation in hell.
You're correct--it does mean no condemnation -- including no hell. But it also means that God does not hold us guilty while we are here on earth. God is not looking to punish Christians because the misbehave. That includes a Tribulation, and that includes the soccer mom that flips off another mom in traffic when she lost her temper. It means that in God's eyes we are sinless and righteous as Jesus is.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember seeing it mentioned anywhere other than Revelation 1 the specific phrase 'the tribulation'...and it's not capitalized. Maybe splitting hairs....I will look at my notes and stuff tonight and get back with on the subject.
There is no statement of "the Tribulation", but throughout the book of Revelation, the judgments are just that -- they are God pouring out wrath in judgment. If we are innocent in God's eyes, it would be logical that we would not go through that.
Put that together with 1 Thess 4 and we see that we will be caught up in the air--it would seem that we may be removed before it happens.
Having said that, I'm still going to trust God if I'm alive and left on earth through all this. It wouldn't mean God is not good, but it would mean my reasoning was faulty.
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But this I am sure we agree on: Jesus is coming back
The dispensation will change with the rapture of the church and the beginning of the tribulation. That is when things go back to where they left off in Israels prophetic promises which have been on hold since this mystery dispensation began. In the prophetic timeline this dispensation was never revealed. We are in a parenthetical time period that paused the prophetic events that were unfolding. They pick back up when our time is up.
What a bunch of nonsense. And people say the Catholic Church is not Biblical !
:headscratch:
You're correct--it does mean no condemnation -- including no hell. But it also means that God does not hold us guilty while we are here on earth. God is not looking to punish Christians because the misbehave. That includes a Tribulation, and that includes the soccer mom that flips off another mom in traffic when she lost her temper. It means that in God's eyes we are sinless and righteous as Jesus is.
There is no statement of "the Tribulation", but throughout the book of Revelation, the judgments are just that -- they are God pouring out wrath in judgment. If we are innocent in God's eyes, it would be logical that we would not go through that.
Put that together with 1 Thess 4 and we see that we will be caught up in the air--it would seem that we may be removed before it happens.
Having said that, I'm still going to trust God if I'm alive and left on earth through all this. It wouldn't mean God is not good, but it would mean my reasoning was faulty.
Amen. True that.
I agree that God does not play 'whack-a-mole' while we are here. There is no judgment until that day. On that day, we are all judged for what we did while we were here. If it is as you say, that we will see no tribulation, why then does John say in the first chapter that he is our brother and companion in the tribulation? I suspect he was of the mind that the tribulation was now, in his time and in ours, the time between the first and second coming of Jesus.
Also, in Revelation 6, when the souls of the martyrs are crying out to God, "When will you avenge us?" (my paraphrasing) they are given robes and told to hang in there until their number was complete, meaning there were more martyrs coming. If there are no Christians left, then who are these martyrs and why were they still here, and why were they not raptured out? Leaves me asking too many questions to believe in a secret rapture of the church.
And again let me stress this--- there is room for disagreement here. If I ever come out and tell you or anyone else that their eschatology is flat out wrong, I am in error. We will spend a lifetime studying the scriptures, and there will still be questions that will only be answered on that day.
The dispensation will change with the rapture of the church and the beginning of the tribulation. That is when things go back to where they left off in Israels prophetic promises which have been on hold since this mystery dispensation began. In the prophetic timeline this dispensation was never revealed. We are in a parenthetical time period that paused the prophetic events that were unfolding. They pick back up when our time is up.
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Originally Posted by Snowball7
What a bunch of nonsense. And people say the Catholic Church is not Biblical !
:headscratch:
Why do you call it nonsense Snowball? Did not the apostle Paul state that this mystery was hidden in long ages past, but has now been revealed?
Rom. 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
Col. 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. 25] Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship(οἰκονομία - oikonomia - dispensation, administration ) from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, 26] that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27] to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
The dispensation or stewardship of the church is the mystery that was kept under wraps and not revealed in past times. When Jesus mentioned the church which He would establish, it was still a future event.
Matthew 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
And wasn't Paul clear that the rapture (the catching up, the snatching away) of the church (1 Thess. 4:17) would precede the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9)? Didn't Paul make it clear in the context of that passage that we (the church) are not destined for wrath (1 Thess. 5:9) but for obtaining salvation (deliverance) from the day of the Lord.
The day of the Lord refers to any period of divine judgment upon a people or upon the earth. There were days of the Lord in Old Testament times. There is a still future day of the Lord which takes place during the Tribulation. In Revelation 6:17 it is referred to as the day of their (God [the Father] and the Lamb) wrath.
As I stated in post #12 the tribulation is a seven year period (Daniel's 70th week [Dan. 9:27] ). Just as the first 69 weeks of the 70 weeks prophecy (weeks of years; 7 x 69 = 483 years) was a literal period of time beginning with the forth decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus which was issued in 444 B.C., (Nehemiah 2:1-8), and this is the degree mentioned in Daniel 9:25, and ending with Jesus' Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem sitting on a donkey's colt, so also the remaining 70th week of years will be a literal 7 years.
The beginning of Daniel's 70th week will begin with the signing of a peace treaty with Israel by the prince who is to come (Daniel 9:27). Paul refers to him as the man of lawlessness (2 Thess. 2:3-10). This means that there must be a nation Israel with which to sign the peace treaty [that nation now exists]. In Daniel 9:27 this is referred to as a 'covenant with the many.' But in the middle of the week (3 1/2 years), the prince who is to come will break that peace treaty. And when he does, he will seat himself in the temple (the temple will have to be rebuilt before the Tribulation begins), and declare himself to be God. This is the abomination of desolation of which Jesus spoke in Matthew 24:15, at which point those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains [v. 16] to a place which God has prepared for them where they will be safe for the remaining 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. And that those 3 1/2 years are a literal period of time is shown by the fact that in Revelation this 3 1/2 year period is referred to as one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Rev. 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
This last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation is also stated as 42 months in which it is given to the beast (the antichrist, the prince who is to come, the man of lawlessness) to speak arrogant words and blasphemies, and to have authority in which to act.
Rev. 13:5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.
John, the author of the book of Revelation, the Revelation having been disclosed to him by Jesus, goes out of his way to make it clear that the last half of the Tribulation is a literal 3 1/2 year period. One thousand two hundred and sixty days is 3 1/2 years according to a 360 day calendar. As well, 42 months is 3 1/2 years. There can be no doubt that the Tribulation - Daniel's 70th week is a literal seven year period of time. Daniel's 70th week is still future.
The Tribulation will climax with the Armageddon campaign in which the armies of the antichrist will attack and seek to destroy the Jews. This campaign will involve at least the specific geographical areas of Jerusalem (Zech. 12:2-11; 14:2); Megiddo and the plain of Esdraelon (Rev. 16:16); the Jehoshaphat Valley, east of Jerusalem (Ezek. 39:11); and Edom (Isa. 34:16;63:1-6).
But those involved in the Armageddon campaign will be destroyed by Jesus when He returns to fight for His people (Zech. 14:1-5; Rev. 19:11-21).
Then Jesus will set up His Millennial kingdom upon the earth. Zech. 14:9-20 is set within the context of the Millennial kingdom as are many other Old Testament passages.
I realize that Amillennialism is the view held by probably most within Christianity, but a literal interpretation of Scripture shows the Millennial kingdom to be literal and physical upon the earth, and still future. Only by allegorizing scriptures for which there really is no justification for doing so can one hold to an Amillennial view.
So Mike, if Revelation is to be literally interpreted, how does the angel bring a literal key to a literal bottomless pit, and wrap a literal steel chain around a spiritual being?
Numbers throughout Revelation are symbolic. If Revelation is to be taken literally, why are you concerned about any of it after chapter 4?
And trust me, Amillenialism is far from being the predominant eschatological view. Since the mid 1800s and the Scofield type study bibles, dispensational premillenialism has been the dominating stance. I found that out as I was gradually exiting the Premillenial view.
So Mike, if Revelation is to be literally interpreted, how does the angel bring a literal key to a literal bottomless pit, and wrap a literal steel chain around a spiritual being?
Numbers throughout Revelation are symbolic. If Revelation is to be taken literally, why are you concerned about any of it after chapter 4?
And trust me, Amillenialism is far from being the predominant eschatological view. Since the mid 1800s and the Scofield type study bibles, dispensational premillenialism has been the dominating stance. I found that out as I was gradually exiting the Premillenial view.
Proper interpretation requires recognizing what is literal, and what is symbolic, and treating each accordingly. But even when symbolic language is used, underlying the symbolism is something real. Revelation uses a lot of symbolic language but nevertheless refers to real events which are to take place.
As I stated, there is no symbolism involved in the time period regarding the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. That is quite obvious from the fact that both 42 months, and one thousand two hundred and sixty days are used to describe that time period.
It has also been shown that just as the first 69 weeks of years of Daniel's 70 week prophecy were literally fulfilled, so also must the remaining week of years be a literal 7 years.
I am not the least bit concerned about the events following Revelation 4. However, as a part of the word of God Revelation is to be studied and understood. And it is interesting.
With regard to the popularity of amillennialism, regardless of how many do hold to that view, I'll simply post the following.
Amillennialism has been widely held in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches as well as in the Roman Catholic Church, which generally embraces an Augustinian eschatology and which has deemed that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught."[6] Amillennialism is also common among Protestant denominations such as the Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican, many Messianic Jews, and Methodist Churches.[17] It represents the historical position of the Amish, Old Order Mennonite, and Conservative Mennonites (though among the more modern groups premillennialism has made inroads). It is also common among groups arising from the 19th century American Restoration Movement such as the Churches of Christ,[18]:125 Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and Christian churches and churches of Christ. It even has a significant following amongst Evangelical Christian denominations including Baptist denominations such as The Association of Grace Baptist Churches in England. Partial preterism is sometimes a component of amillennial hermeneutics. Amillennialism declined in Protestant circles with the rise of Postmillennialism and the resurgence of Premillennialism in the 18th and 19th centuries, but it has regained prominence in the West after World War II.
You're correct--it does mean no condemnation -- including no hell. But it also means that God does not hold us guilty while we are here on earth. God is not looking to punish Christians because the misbehave. That includes a Tribulation, and that includes the soccer mom that flips off another mom in traffic when she lost her temper. It means that in God's eyes we are sinless and righteous as Jesus is..
Woo-Hoo!!!...That means I can go cheat on my wife and still go to heaven!...Yessss!!...
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, but this is going downhill. ...just joking.
