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These attempts by Universalists to deny that the word aionios can refer to endless duration, as the article you posted does, are ridiculous.
For a more honest and objective assessment of the word, and by a Universalist, A. T. Robertson, to whom you have referred a few times since you started posting on this forum, makes the following comment on the word aionios. Notice what I bolded.
A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures: Matthew 25:46
Eternal punishment (kolasin aiwnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazw, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mwria (vengeance) and kolasi. But the same adjective aiwnio is used with kolasin and zwhn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zwhn. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one's mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiwnio (from aiwn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (aiwne twn aiwnwn). [Bolding mine]
Robertson does not agree with the author of your article who says ''Zoe aionios . . . is not endless life.'' Robertson states that ''The word aiwnio (from aiwn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (aiwne twn aiwnwn).''
Notice also that Robertson says that there is no reason to assume that the duration of the punishment is not equal with the duration of the life which as he says is without end. Despite his Universalist leanings, Robertson objectively acknowledges that the passage indicates that both the punishment and the life are endless, but that it is something to be left ''to the King himself who is the Judge.''
The Hebrew word Olam is synonymous with the Greek word aionios. And in Daniel 12:2 the word Olam is used for those who are to be resurrected. Now unless you want to claim that resurrection is of limited duration and will come to an end, then, if you are honest, you have to concede that Olam in this context refers to endless duration.
Of course, I'm pretty sure this will just go in one ear and out the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv
I am again going to state that A.T. Robertson, a Baptist who taught koine Greek at graduate level for 47 years, was NOT a "universalist. He may sound like one at times, but alas, unless you can demonstrate otherwise. I very much appreciate his spirit and his assessment stands! Be very careful how you throw "eternal" around, in reality it can only apply to the Eternal One! You may find words that denote eternal like amaranth...well Rose will leave it there for now. "We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge."
That only God has eternally existed, that is, that only He has never had a beginning, is not the issue. The issue is whether the words aionios and olam ever refer to unending duration, that is, once begun, the duration is without end. And again, unless you want to claim that resurrection refers to a temporary period of time, you must concede that both olam and aionios are indeed used with reference to unending duration.
Concerning Robertson, I did find a reference to him in a book which I linked to below which says that he was not an overt universalist although he rejected eternal punishment.
Despite rejecting eternal punishment he was objective enough to realize that the punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 was of the same duration as the life, and that both were presented as being endless.
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-04-2018 at 11:11 AM..
That only God has eternally existed, that is, that only He has never had a beginning, is not the issue. The issue is whether the words aionios and olam ever refer to unending duration, that is, once begun, the duration is without end. And again, unless you want to claim that resurrection refers to a temporary period of time, you must concede that both olam and aionios are indeed used with reference to unending duration.
Mike: I am afraid you are not grasping the meaning of olam."The Hebrew word from which the aforementioned "everlasting," "perpetual" and "forever" were translated, is "olam." Wilson�s Old Testament Word Studies by William Wilson, gives the meaning of "olam" as "duration of time which is concealed or hidden." In other words, an unknown length of time. Though it may have been a very long or even indeterminable period of time, the sense that it would come to an end was always there."
Mike: I am afraid you are not grasping the meaning of olam."The Hebrew word from which the aforementioned "everlasting," "perpetual" and "forever" were translated, is "olam." Wilson�s Old Testament Word Studies by William Wilson, gives the meaning of "olam" as "duration of time which is concealed or hidden." In other words, an unknown length of time. Though it may have been a very long or even indeterminable period of time, the sense that it would come to an end was always there."
You are not understanding ME. Unless you are claiming that resurrection is only of a temporary nature, you must concede that olam used in the context of resurrection refers to unending duration. In Daniel 12:2 the word olam is used of those who are to be resurrected to everlasting (unending) life and of those who in contrast are to be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Are you claiming that resurrection is only a temporary thing that will come to an end?
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-04-2018 at 12:02 PM..
Concerning Robertson, I did find a reference to him in a book which I linked to below which says that he was not an overt universalist although he rejected eternal punishment.
Despite rejecting eternal punishment he was objective enough to realize that the punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 was of the same duration as the life, and that both were presented as being endless.
As you know by now, Rose has high regard for F.W.R. His spirit is one of humility and great insight. I do appreciate you taking the time to post the reference to him, and thank you! If he did indeed reject the ghastly idea of never ending punishment, then my high regard for him goes up a notch! There is nothing, and I mean nothing, dumber than a father who punishes as an end in itself. And Abba, the Father of all fathers, moves towards change and transformation NOT endless misery. If you actually believe that is what the Father's word indicates, you must continue to be faithful to your grasp of Him. I cannot!
As you know by now, Rose has high regard for F.W.R. His spirit is one of humility and great insight. I do appreciate you taking the time to post the reference to him, and thank you! If he did indeed reject the ghastly idea of never ending punishment, then my high regard for him goes up a notch! There is nothing, and I mean nothing, dumber than a father who punishes as an end in itself. And Abba, the Father of all fathers, moves towards change and transformation NOT endless misery. If you actually believe that is what the Father's word indicates, you must continue to be faithful to your grasp of Him. I cannot!
And of course, you simply ignored the rest of my post. Post #31.
You are not understanding ME. Unless you are claiming that resurrection is only of a temporary nature, you must concede that olam used in the context of resurrection refers to unending duration. In Daniel 12:2 the word olam is used of those who are to be resurrected to everlasting (unending) life and of those who in contrast are to be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Are you claiming that resurrection is only a temporary thing that will come to an end?
I concede nothing! Olam does not demonstrate unending, never has, never will. Resurrection life in the Lord our God is not based on the weakness of olam, or even aionios for that matter. Oh my no. The calibre of resurrection life flows from the Author of Life and rests not on anything but His glorious Person! And yes Mike, I understand you only to well.
I concede nothing! Olam does not demonstrate unending, never has, never will. Resurrection life in the Lord our God is not based on the weakness of olam, or even aionios for that matter. Oh my no. The calibre of resurrection life flows from the Author of Life and rests not on anything but His glorious Person! And yes Mike, I understand you only to well.
I don't think you understand much of anything. You refuse to acknowledge the significance of the fact that within the context of Daniel 12:2 the word olam is used for those who are to be resurrected, and since resurrection is of unlimited duration then so is the word olam within that context. It is the context which determines the meaning of a word.
Dan. 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting (olam) life, and some to shame and everlasting (olam) contempt.
If within the context of Daniel 12:2 olam refers only to a period of duration that will come to an end then those who awake (are resurrected) to olam life will only be temporarily resurrected.
You are not understanding ME. Unless you are claiming that resurrection is only of a temporary nature, you must concede that olam used in the context of resurrection refers to unending duration. In Daniel 12:2 the word olam is used of those who are to be resurrected to everlasting (unending) life and of those who in contrast are to be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Are you claiming that resurrection is only a temporary thing that will come to an end?
It refers to that which is "over the horizon" and does not specify anything further. What you are wanting it to say is that people will be eternally punished or condemned which is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.
I don't think you understand much of anything. You refuse to acknowledge the significance of the fact that within the context of Daniel 12:2 the word olam is used for those who are to be resurrected, and since resurrection is of unlimited duration then so is the word olam within that context. It is the context which determines the meaning of a word.
Dan. 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting (olam) life, and some to shame and everlasting (olam) contempt.
If within the context of Daniel 12:2 olam refers only to a period of duration that will come to an end then those who awake (are resurrected) to olam life will only be temporarily resurrected.
I'm trying to follow you and Rose's conversation but it's difficult. This is why I don't really like pointing to scriptures in isolation. The book of Daniel is a book of prophesy. The scripture you're referencing is within the context of prophesy. I think Dan 12:2 can be taken at least two ways--literally and figuratively. I am going to focus on the figurative, because I believe "those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" is talking about God's judgment. This, IMO, is about the remaining children of Israel and points to the resurrection of the 144k from the 12 tribes. Many Israelites are lost (scattered) but they are awakening to who they are. In that way, they are "sleep" (not conscious of who they are or their mission) in the "dust" (what remains of a wicked world) of the earth. Those who will have everlasting life are those whose names are found in the book (the 144k from Revelation). Dan 12:1 says: "...there will be a time of distress unparalleled between the time they (Israel) became a nation and that moment. At that that time, your people will be delivered..." Again, I think this is a reference to Revelation 7:3 where the scripture says "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads!" God is going to gather the scattered of Israel (the true Israel, who will become a nation again) an will harvest the righteous (the 144k) before Satan's world is destroyed.
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