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Originally Posted by omega2xx
You have moved the goal posts. Your original statement was men had caused God to change His mind.
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I made a misquote which corrupted fundamentalists take as fact. You could have stated, "from your previous posts I understood you believed men had changed God's mind."
But dishonesty lies in the heart of your belief system.
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
What is the sin of certainty?
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“The long Protestant quest to get the Bible right has not led to greater and greater certainty about what the Bible means. Quite the contrary. It has led to a staggering number of different denominations and sub denominations that disagree sharply about how significant portions of the Bible should be understood. I mean, if the Bible is our source of sure knowledge about God, how do we explain all this diversity? Isn’t the Bible supposed to unify us rather than divide us?”
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The Sin of Certainty, Peter Enns, HarperOne, 2016, pg. 52
"God desires our trust more than our correct beliefs" (same source)
But Bible worshipers don't need to trust God, their trust is in the Bible as they interpret it.
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
You have not shown me one contradiction in the Bible. You need to quit pontificating and be specific. Give me verses I can check
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I have, but since there are so many, I'll provide a few more.
Jesus said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matt. 5:18 ( I believe Jesus spoke with hyperbole because what followed were His own six examples that absolutely challenged the bible idolators of His day.
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You have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not murder,’ (Exodus 20:13) and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.
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Matt. 5:21-22
Now bible fundamentalists of Jesus' day pointed to the law that states one should not "murder," or intentionally kill, anyone else. But Jesus was literally making fun of that because He knew these men were stuck in the book and did not consider what He, as God, considered to be evil and worthy of death----just being ANGRY is wrong enough to be considered "murder" in God's eyes. It means you and I are no different from those horrible murderers, adulterers, (in your view homosexuals), thieves, and liars. He wants us all in the same muck so we can't lord it over others about how good we got it.
Did Jesus stick to the plain, "inerrant" meaning of God's "word," or did He expand by saying the "word" isn't inerrant if it doesn't include what was NOT written"
There is a pithy statement in Proverbs that states with certainty:
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Wisdom is supreme; therefore acquire wisdom. And whatever else you obtain, gain understanding.
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Proverb 4:7
Yet, supposedly Solomon, the world's "wisest man" wrote:
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So I set my mind to know wisdom and madness and folly; I learned that this, too, is a pursuit of the wind. For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and as knowledge grows, grief increases.
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Eccl. 1:17-18
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The wise man has eyes in his head, but the fool walks in darkness. Yet I also came to realize that one fate overcomes them both. So I said to myself, “The fate of the fool will also befall me. What then have I gained by being wise?” And I said to myself that this too is futile.…
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Eccl. 2:14-15
One would think Solomon didn't have a copy of Proverbs---or that perhaps his own experience trumped that of the author. But an inerrantist is forced to admit that God inspired two men and two different times to reach two different conclusions.
However, a hard headed fundamentalist can't harmonize these with just Scripture, he/she must harmonize it with their own "splanation" of what it means. Unfortunately you "splanation" isn't of the same value of Scripture and it undoubtedly comes right from the Adversary who wishes you to keep the Bible on the altar of your heart--not Jesus.
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
You don't know that unless your give verse that contraqdict and yoou have not done that yet.
The Bible teaches inspiration of Scripture, but nowhere does it support inerrancy -- the latter is part of paganism of the Bible idol.
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Well, that is a correct statement, but given your past history I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you didn't mean it at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can twist some verse of Scripture to interpret it to "The Bible was inerrant from the moment any part was written." That sounds more like the fundamentalist I used to be----which you deny without knowing anything about me.
It's quite strange that you can state emphatically that I "never was a fundamentalist," and say that about others on here who are also ex-fundamentalists rescued by Jesus Christ. But it does fit in with your own self-created idea that eternal security of the believer is true and that anyone who turns away was never really a Christian anyway!!!! Nice dodge---but all of it is in the heart of those who have to dodge to keep their Bible idol intact.
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
You don't know he Bible well enough to make such a foolish statement.
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Yes, I would be smarter if I didn't know the Bible at all? If I hadn't taken seven academic courses in Biblical studies at a SBC college? If I had just left my "biblical understanding" to the Sunday School Bible to which you cling? It leaves you gnashing your teeth that many "liberal" Christians can dish it out on an equal basis with you-- despite not "knowing the Bible well enough to make foolish statements." My claim is that the Bible is now and always has been subject to numerous interpretive views. None of them IMO cross the line until they begin to communicate with the sin of certainty that is number one in the sin burden you covet to yourself.
And that is typical fundamentalist nonsense.
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
Typical liberal nonsense.
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I didn't realize that making Jesus primary in one's life was "typical liberal nonsense." That is a bit of fundamentalism that I never encountered in my day.
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
Then why did God have predestination put in His holy, inspired word 3 times?
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Good question!! And if you believe it you can't also believe that your prayers make any difference at all. Why did Jesus suggest we pray, and in a certain way, if we are already predestined. Please provide Scripture as so far it is only your less than inspired opinion that has appeared in print.
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
The do no have Scripture o support it. They just interpret it that way because it makes them feel good/
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(1) God is the Father of all men. "Have we not ALL one Father? Hath not one God created us?" (Mal. 2:10) A kind Father will not punish his children but for their good. God is evidently called the Father of all men in the Scriptures, and this is not an unmeaning name. He has the disposition and principles of a Father. He loves with a Father's love. He watches with a Father's care. He reproves with a Father's tenderness. He punishes with a Father's design. God is the Father of all men and, therefore, he cannot make mankind endlessly miserable.
(2)All men, of right, belong to God. "Behold all souls are mine," saith the Lord "As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine." (Ezek. 18:4) God will not give up what belongeth to him, to the dominion of sin and Satan forever.
All men are God's by creation. He has made them all. They are his by preservation. He sustains them all. They were his at first, and they always have remained in his care. "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein." (Psalms 24:1) "If any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel" (1 Tim. 5:8), can never abandon HIS OWN creatures.
(3)It is the will of God that all men shall be saved. "Who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4) By "all men", in this passage, is undoubtedly to be understood all the human race. Salvation comes through the belief of the truth. God wills that all men should come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved thereby
(4) Jesus came to do the will of God. "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work". (John 4:34) "Lo, I come to do thy will O God". (Heb. 10:9) The will of God is, that ALL MEN shall be saved. This is his will, by way of distinction and preeminence. Jesus came to do this will. He came as the Savior, as the Savior of all men. He came as the good Shepherd, to seek and save that which was lost. He came to save all men, not only those who lived on the earth while he was here, but all who lived before, and all who have since lived, and all who shall live. Jesus gave himself a ransom for all. He tasted death for every man, and unto him, at last, every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess him Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Such is the way in which Jesus does the will of God.
You can go to this academic website at Auburn University to read other arguments.
Scriptural Evidence of Universalism
I'm not saying I believe these arguments without speculation. I'm saying neither are YOUR arguments without Biblical speculation. Fundamentalists and Universalists are peas at opposite ends of the exact same argument.
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
I am not in error a bout the Southern Baptist. Thanks for confirming you were never a fundamentalist.
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When were you a Southern Baptist? Ever? I could appreciate jimmie making a comment because he is a tried and true SBC fundamentalist. I even served in my SBC college as a senior administrator for a short while. But I came to see they were leaving their roots that were accepting of diverse opinions and swallowing the political takeover of the denomination by
god's
own
party.
However, there are a few that believe the SBC is still a blazing liberal entity because they don't hold to the KJV as the only "true" word of God. Perhaps you are one of these. Then I could at least see why you are blind to what has happened to the denomination and they are still "blazing" liberals in your narrow view.
The moderates abandoned the SBC in 1991 over some of the restrictive beliefs that were coming to surface:
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The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF) is a Christian fellowship of Baptist churches formed in 1991. Theologically moderate, the CBF withdrew from the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) over philosophical and theological differences, such as the SBC prohibition of women serving as pastors. The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship claims approximately 1,900 partner churches. The CBF is involved with the Baptist Center for Ethics, Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty, the Baptist World Alliance and 15 Baptist seminaries and divinity school programs which have emerged in the wake of the conservative direction taken by the six SBC seminaries.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper...ist_Fellowship
The public data shows that you haven't a leg to stand on claiming they are too liberal. I know people inside both the Co-operative and Southern Baptist circles. They aren't even close to being the same.
But then someone who has only a restricted view of god in a book can put everyone outside their own circle into a "liberal" bucket. It's the a sign of an unthinking mind.
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
You are judging me. Do you not know what Jesus said about that, or have you decided He did not speak of judging others
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Stating that I was you is not "judging" you. It is me recognizing in a CD mirror just how awful
I was. If you don't see that in yourself, I pity you. But not many are rescued from the cesspool of fundamentalism. Seeing me in you, is being able to once again be thankful that God gave me an open heart instead of a closed mind. But then again, He wants us all in the same muck so we can't lord it over others about how good we got it. I don't have it "that good," but neither do others have it as bad as you claim they do. We're in the muck together.
I think you would be better off clinging to the Universalists thought about predestination. At least that would provide some hope.
At least those who read this can see that if you don't know a thing about what is happening on a national basis with the second largest Christian denomination in the world, it is unlikely for you to know much about the Bible either--other than what has been your Sunday School bible that hasn't a scholastic leg to stand on.
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