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yes I see what you are saying I see them do this alot. where they apply spiritually- eternally dead with a death that ends the physical.
what we all have to remember as you brought up here is what you show . that there is a death in the spirit that did leave humanity quite WHAT YOU CALL EXSISTANCE I WILL CALL " aware" .. and to God what we call awareness isn't not LIFE.. It isn't what he supplied for humanity to live as. AND THEN WE ALSO KNOW THAT HE SPEAKS OF AT LEAST TWO DEATHS.. AND THERE WAS THE ORIGINAL FALL.. AND IT SEEMS IT HAD MAYBE ONE DEATH OF ONE PART OF OUR AWARENESS .
because they surely did die that day IN THE VERY LEAST THEIR INNOCENCE DIED THAT DAY.. at some level and it was just a matter of time before body follows their spirits path into "the death" they were already in. AND NO ONE CAN PROVE WHAT IT TAKES FOR AWRENESS TO END... NDE SEEM TO PROVE THERE IS NO END TO EVERY LEVEL OF AWARENESS .
what men think of as alive is quite dead also.. . but Adam and Eve continued to be quite aware and also very fearful as the clear sign of awareness that is spiritually not alive.. or there would be no fear of ever ending...
now men call awareness of a brain wave the only kind of "life" when God calls this kind of awareness but lack of his life.. as Death! But the body hasn't finished rotting yet.
and I am sure scripture is quite clear that God is quite sure that there is a kind of awareness that is still called " in death" BY God's definition ..
so arguing these things with anyone is really quite circular, maybe because so few understand God's definitions of life and death..they only rely on their own definitions. and I am very sure we can't rely on or own understandings and points of veiw.. espcially as it concerns "life" and "death" because we are not using the same page dictionary that Father God is.
as God says they died and some parts of their awareness died but not all parts... but he still calls it death....... AS WE LIKE GOD MIGHT BE THREE PART BEINGS ( AS WE ARE ALSO IN HIS IMAGE AND TYPE) AND WHEN THE BODIES AWARENESS DIES AND THEIR SPIRIT NEVER LIVED ( BOTH THOSE AWARENESSES BEING FULL DEAD) ..... IS THERE YET A/OUR THIRD PART AND IT HAS AND IS FULL OF AWARENESS AND WHAT IS BEING PROVED by NDE's ?
SO HOW MANY TIMES MUST GOD SAY "DEATH" FOR ALL OUR THREE parts to be completely unaware?
this is the reason I question if there is even annihilation of all the parts God gave men...
we can only call the extent of these gifts as "the human awareness" but God still called it death.. so even when Powers of DEATH is thrown into the lake .. that may mean some forms of human awareness that might not ever die is in that ..
so not the
(everyone is saved or God is a big meany group) can't answer these questions about our God given gift of awareness / anawareness that God even calls "death" yet can feel people enter a room.. knows when some will call you.. Knows when a child is hurt...... and so neither can explain the full gifts of our humanity..
I can only pray and suspect that God in his mercy will also End all forms and sorts of " a Human's awarenesses" at it's maybe even many many levels of the heart and soul . That is if their judgment will be annihilation.
and maybe these levels of human awareness is why there is even "a judgment" AT ALL .... as to what PARTS OF THEIR AWARENESS is EVEN ended in them and what is not . OH...EEK . which is really kind of sad..
THERE IS MANY QUESTIONS HIDING around THERE someplaces AND I CAN'T ANSWER THEM and neither can they .
and I just found this ...... as Jonathan Kahn brings up there is the mystery of God IN THE word for the rich mans "DEATHS" not a singular "death" but many "deaths" JESUS TALKED ABOUT .. How MANY DEATHS MUST MEN DIE TO STOP ALL THEIR AWARENESS? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2hBbt5ypu0
I JUST SEE THIS IN HIS WORD AND NO NE WANTS TO KNOW.. OR DO THEY ASK .. AND THE UNIVERSALIST REALLY DON'T ASK TO KNOW WHAT JESUS IS TALKING ABOUT. BECAUSE IT WOULD FOR SURE MESS WITH THEIR PLANS AND DEMANDS ..
AND SO I WILL SPECULATE THAT if we like God have a 7 fold spirit / OR heart? or mind? LIKE OUR FATHER AND HIS SON.... how many such deaths must we "Die" to end all of our "awareness" ?
I don't know but neither does anyone !! EXCEPT MAYBE Heaven and Our Creator , YES HE WOULD KNOW THAT IT WOULD TAKE MANY SUCH "DEATHS" TO REALLY "DIE" AND MANY SUCH "LIFES" AND MANY MORE "MERCIES" TO BE "SAVED" .
Here is one more thought on this subject of what is life and how many deaths will we have before we are not aware ANYMORE ? ?
This concept of many lives and or many deaths that we can Take. Reminds me of a dream I had . I call it the swishy thing dream..
So I had a dream in this dream I woke up or became aware INSIDE OF the dream and it was pitch black.. I had never seen such a dark place.
But just a few seconds after becoming aware how dark it was.. A felt a kind of hot breathy wind.. With just a hint of light to it .. It swished past me and was gone . It scared me silly. And I screamed and almost like tried to find out what it was as it kind of had a very lightly glowing ghost like kind of presence as it swished like wind past me. So just about the time you start to relax.. There it is again .. The ghostly swishy thing flies past me as I jump and scream again and try to almost follow it where EVER it went..
Time and time again I tried to follow as it swished past me and scared me to a scream and a jump and a panic in my breathing ..as I kept moving around towards where it seemed to be going as it glowed past me .. I kept trying to find it and or follow it to see what it was.. As i followed it from place to place and room to room. I started to become aware of my surroundings .. As the breathy thing swished past me time and time again..
With each breath I became more aware and more and more involved in my surroundings and started to see my environment. and would feel a familiar feeling chair or loung.
You see when he formed us it was just one breath and He brought Adam and Eve life.. But it seems it takes even a thousand of his breaths to take and heal and clean and renew a sinful wounded and fallen chunk of dirt and spit. we are no longer clean dirt .. Adam and Eve a clean chunk of dirt and spit..
But for some maybe sitting fully aware in the darkness of their own minds may have been most comfortable and they will never leave that spot …. Never confronting the swishy scare breath and the bits of glowing light that followed it like a ghost in the mist.. .. But iIhad a need to chase down that scary breathy thing... And in time and with awareness I found all the rooms of my surroundings and as it got lighter and lighter.. I became comfortable in that place which was my home in his Father's kingdom.. A like a whole level apartment in a giant pillar in a city i could not even begin to tell where it was but just up in the sky and all I could see was more pillars and more sky in all directions..
Found myself in a huge apartment in a pillar in what was probably in the last age and in the new city it must be father’s city 1400 miles square scripture says that it hovers above the earth .. Yep it was that big at least... And the nearly planet-sized city in the sky where say a sky scrapper would be dwarfed by these pillars.. They were huge ..
The lord has always used the church of Philadelphia to teach me and give me direction in my life,, over and over he used it . And again he pointed to the fact that he was going to make me an apartment in a pillar in the new city, where there is no temple because his people are the temple..
The was Jesu is confirming the scarey things are coming and the scary things will lead me to find my place in his kingdom. But just keep searching for him and just keep going because the cool stuff is coming.. And we can become more aware and more involved with his kingdom.
I think the other point was I may have or not been “saved” while sitting in the darkness of our own fears and small minds.. But it is not what he has for us and it is not who or what we were created to do or be .. We were created to grow and learn and have a place in his New world in about 1000 years, just to serve our heavenly Father!
I will tell you I may have been "saved" because I said a prayer. Even when I was in the darkness scared to death to move.. . Darkness I would not be able to tell if that was hell or not .. .. But I was aware I was lost in ME... .. And I was scared to death. When I figure out where I was I was not scared at all.. But it took me much chasing after his breath and him breathing on me a few hundred times for me to become fearless and not lost in ME .
But in the darkness what I was mostly I was not aware enough of my true surroundings.
That kind of awareness and that level of life.... Took him breathing on me hundreds of times. Not just once like when adam was clean and pure raw dirt and spit.. One breath brought Adam life...... but i am not raw dirt anymore. But sinful and fearful and broken and wounded and needing a hero to save me ... And in his many " mercies" maybe he loves us enough now to breath on us thousand times if that is what it takes to bring us to health and to healing and to become one His awareness of who we are in His life and in his place and in his ways ...
So if it takes that many of his breathe to heal us .. And one breath once brought humanity into “life.”.
And I am going to have to ask then how many breathes did it take to bring me to live in his kingdom?
Breathes that were bring me maybe back to just the place just as it was with Adam and Eve?
Then how many deaths have we already died ? and were yet aware but just sitting in that darkness of our little minds ..
But yet I not fully alive either !
the darkness reminds me of the 10 virgins, 5 who had not worshipped other gods.. they just were not ready and had not prepared .. those who were "left outside in the darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth ( in fear? or cold?)"
The 10 Commandments were written by the finger of God, and are within the ark of the covenant, and therefore are the covenant between God and Israel. The laws are on the outside, and were added after Israel worshipped the golden calf.
Sure, whatever...You obviously do not know Judaism at all...
Re the subject topic. I would reject the idea of a literal hell for 'the wicked' FROM THE OUTSET since such a design of punishment would NOT be representative of any deity worthy of love or with a modicum of intelligence and decency. It just would not! There IS no further debate as far as I'm concerned. So, for me, such an abhorrent place - realistically - CANNOT POSSIBLY EXIST!
Death Yes
Hell No
How is it that God's warning, "...for in the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die," has, by strange inference, effectively morphed into "...for in the day you eat thereof you will start down the path toward everlasting damnation?" (As an aside, the more accurately translated Hebrew has the original statement as "...for in the day you eat thereof, dying you shall die.")
"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again. But the Lord does not take away life. instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored"
Sure, whatever...You obviously do not know Judaism at all...
New American Standard Bible Jeremiah 8:8
"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
Deuteronomy 31:24-26 (NIV) After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
New International Version Exodus 25:16 Then put in the ark the tablets of the covenant law, which I will give you.
How is it that God's warning, "...for in the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die," has, by strange inference, effectively morphed into "...for in the day you eat thereof you will start down the path toward everlasting damnation?" (As an aside, the more accurately translated Hebrew has the original statement as "...for in the day you eat thereof, dying you shall die.")
"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again. But the Lord does not take away life. instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored"
Hell is Sheol, the grave, the pit. Everyone goes to hell/die (Jeremiah 31:30). The "Christians" have adopted the false "hell" of Dante's Inferno. Dante's "Inferno" hell, gets the tithe contributions rolling. Now what there is, is the "furnace of fire", which would include a death by fire, smoke, and sulfur/brimstone (Revelation 9:18), and the refining "fire" of Zechariah 13:8-9, in which of "the little ones", only 1/3 survive.
I am not teaching the "law". I am saying that one must "remember the law of Moses, My servant, even the statutes and ordinance which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel" (Malachi 4:4), "lest I come and smite the land with a curse" (Malachi 4:6). Apparently the land was smitten by a curse until the Jubilee of 1918, when the Zionist Jews/Judah were allowed back into Judea with respect to the declaration of Balfour. Fifty years later, Jerusalem was also "restored" (Joel 3:1). As for the words of Solomon, the "conclusion, when all has been heard, is fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.(Ecclesiastes 12:13-14) Unfortunately for the Jews, they lost track of the Jubilee, and don't seem to recognize it when they see the land returned to remnants of Israel.
Dear Mike: As Pcamps has pointed out to you, there are one verse foundations upon which fundagelicals stand. The biggie one is St. Matthew 25:46 to which you are making reference.
Your question=
Without going outside the context of St, Matthew 25, please list the five (5) qualifications for "everlasting punishment. They are>>>>>>
1.______________________________________________?
2.______________________________________________?
3.______________________________________________?
4.______________________________________________?
5.______________________________________________?
Dear Mike: You state>>>>>
"The punishment of the one group is as long as the life of the other group - endless in duration."
Without going outside the context of St, Matthew 25, please list the five (5) qualifications for "everlasting life. They are>>>>>>
Shame he wasn't at Nicaea when they decided what books were God breatherd and which ones weren't . Guess what ?, none of those sat at that meeting ever walked with Jesus ...... whoosh..........There goes Jimmiej's almighty assumption that walking with Jesus can be assumed as being authorization by Jesus to decide what is scripture and what isn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The Council of Nicea had absolutely nothing to do with deciding which books were inspired. The New Testament canon wasn't on the agenda at the council. Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code is fictional and not historically accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Absolutely, nothing?
Absolutely nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Who cares. Whoever put it together did not walk with Jesus, which according to jimmiej authorizes you to determine what is scripture and what isn't. Can anything be trusted that came out of a medieval church age where basically the light of Jesus Christ was none existent?.
Having been shown that you don't know what you're talking about, you now proclaim . . . ''Who cares?'' People who care about historical accuracy care.
You just implied that the early church didn't walk with God. . .an arrogant and self-righteous, holier than thou attitude on your part. It was the early church which recognized the divine authority inherent in the documents which were written by the apostles and by men closely associated with the apostles, and which became a part of the NT canon.
Since you reject the trustworthiness of the early church, and of the apostles, you have nothing but your feelings on which to base your assumptions about God.
You are subjective rather than objective and therefore are incapable of objective discussion about the issue.
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