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I don't know if it this has ever been said, but "millennialism" is not a historical biblical teaching. Many who "saber rattle" about world end events bring on scoffers through the likes like Van Impe.
Historical teaching of Revelation that has been (though I don't claim to understand everything) taught is:
Revelation is in 2 basic parts:
1) the seven letters to the churches: chapters 1-3
2) the history of the world and Gods complete control of world events ending with victory and final judgment of evil people and over Satan chapters 4-22.
Chapters 4-22 is not like an index of a movie, were chapter 4 is the beginning and chapter 22 is the end of the world. Don't misunderstand, I have been wanting more than anything for the world to end like most. Chapter 22 was for those and provided hope and comfort for all the centuries, not just people who thought a new century was coming like in 1800, 1900, 2000.
Revelation came "by way of symbols"
Based on the convincing evidence by Jack M. Cascione, In Search of the Biblical Order (Cleveland: Biblion Publishing, 1987).
For example: the number 10 or ten-part structures.
10 speak about completion and\or comprise a complete list or full scope of a particular subject.
12 speak about the church or believers.
Revelation speaks of twelve stars, gates, angels, tribes, foundation stones, apostles, pearls, kinds of fruit, even 24 elders (two sets of 12)
Larger numbers like 1,000 or 144,000 are multiples of smaller symbolic numbers and should be recognized as such -
For example, 1000 = completion x completion x completion (10 x 10 x 10). 1000 is symbolic.
144,000 is symbolic. (12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10) if written as a algebra equation
=church x church x complete OT (believers) x NT complete (believers) x completion of both
12 tribes x 12 Apostles x 10 ( complete OT believers) x 10 (complete NT believers) x 10 (their complete number) = 144,000 the total number of Old and New Testament believers who will be saved.
This symbolic structures are also found in 3, 4 5, 6, 7 numbers
3 for instance is the number for God: the Trinity, "Holy, Holy, Holy" Rev 4:8. Responses to God like cursing or praise and responses from God, such as warnings, curses and blessing also come in three-part entities.
Rev 1:8b-d; 14:3a-c; 2:5a-c; 9:18b-d; 1:8, 4:2
If you want to ask a theologian any Revelation questions or read questions that have been answered go to: WELS Topical Q&A: Endtime/Prophecies - Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) (http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1519&cuQA_qaID=1&cuTopic_topicID=77 - broken link)
Jesus' second coming will be one time and final. It will grim for those unbelievers (dead and alive, for the all dead will be resurrected) and it will be total joy for those who believe.
Last edited by twin.spin; 04-25-2008 at 06:41 PM..
I don't know if it this has ever been said, but "millennialism" is not a historical biblical teaching. Many who "saber rattle" about world end events bring on scoffers through the likes like Van Impe.
Historical teaching of Revelation that has been (though I don't claim to understand everything) taught is:
Revelation is in 2 basic parts:
1) the seven letters to the churches: chapters 1-3
2) the history of the world and Gods complete control of world events ending with victory and final judgment of evil people and over Satan chapters 4-22.
Chapters 4-22 is not like an index of a movie, were chapter 4 is the beginning and chapter 22 is the end of the world. If you are to view it as such, as so many have and through out the NT times, it becomes more like a horoscope with "good intentions". Don't misunderstand, I have been wanting more than anything for the world to end like most. Chapter 22 was for those and provided hope and comfort for all the centuries, not just people who thought a new century was coming like in 1800, 1900, 2000.
Revelation came "by way of symbols"
Based on the convincing evidence by Jack M. Cascione, In Search of the Biblical Order (Cleveland: Biblion Publishing, 1987).
For example: the number 10 or ten-part structures.
10 speak about completion and\or comprise a complete list or full scope of a particular subject.
12 speak about the church or believers.
Revelation speaks of twelve stars, gates, angels, tribes, foundation stones, apostles, pearls, kinds of fruit, even 24 elders (two sets of 12)
Larger numbers like 1,000 or 144,000 are multiples of smaller symbolic numbers and should be recognized as such -
For example, 1000 = completion x completion x completion (10 x 10 x 10). 1000 is symbolic.
144,000 is symbolic. (12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10) if written as a algebra equation
=church x church x complete OT (believers) x NT complete (believers) x completion of both
12 tribes x 12 Apostles x 10 ( complete OT believers) x 10 (complete NT believers) x 10 (their complete number) = 144,000 the total number of Old and New Testament believers who will be saved.
This symbolic structures are also found in 3, 4 5, 6, 7 numbers
3 for instance is the number for God: the Trinity, "Holy, Holy, Holy" Rev 4:8. Responses to God like cursing or praise and responses from God, such as warnings, curses and blessing also come in three-part entities.
Rev 1:8b-d; 14:3a-c; 2:5a-c; 9:18b-d; 1:8, 4:2
If you want to ask a theologian any Revelation questions or read questions that have been answered go to: WELS Topical Q&A: Endtime/Prophecies - Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) (http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1519&cuQA_qaID=1&cuTopic_topicID=77 - broken link)
I have head the same teaching in the church of Christ, and believe it is accurate. We also believe it can all be summed up in that the wicked will be cast out, and the righteous will prevail...or something similar.
What is your take on possibilities on the end of mankind whether optimistic or pessimistic, self induced or predetermined by God and the creation of a "Kingdom of Heaven"...
I believe that athough the earth will experince upheavals, calamies, destruction, death, ect,, the end or destiny of mankind will be very optimistic and that it has been predetermined by God.
Romans 8 gives a glimpse into this, I believe;
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation/creature waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation/creature was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that/because the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." ( New American Standard)
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 04-26-2008 at 08:09 AM..
Reason: addition
What is your take on possibilities on the end of mankind whether optimistic or pessimistic, self induced or predetermined by God and the creation of a "Kingdom of Heaven"...
What the heck, you-know-who will weigh in on this one...
It seems to me that certain individuals have been raised/brought up to acknowledge that there exists an existential aspect to all of mankind. In other words, suppose if you had been raised by a mother who instilled in you the concept/notion of responsibility for one's actions, surrounded by the concept of free will. Combine with that an attitude of compassion, sensitivity, and humanity.
That being said, this individual believes that the Book of Revelation can be interpreted in a number of contexts. It can be viewed literally, (in terms of the end time/eschatology in a Christian context) or it can also speak in more secular terms to mankind's hope for utopia, or fear of dystopia. I think in some respects Revelations speaks to both the fears and the hopes that existed at the time it was written, and contemporarily, continue to exist now.
It is largely a matter of interpretation whether or not one perceives a nihlistic end, or a utopian, second coming end. Either view, in my opinion, can be extracted from that text. (Bear in mind, however, it's been a while since this individual read Revelations, much less can profess to understand it.)
I do not feel that those man-made historical events fulfill any biblical prophesy. --But then again, I suspect that that notion/insight comes as no surprise to you! I do feel, however, that in addressing the thesis of your paper, (which someone will be happy to read, if you like, tomorrow, preferably before 6:00) that you should somehow include the following:
It is stated somewhere in the bible that "the kingdom of god is at hand." --That, I think, means now. That, (in terms of a contemporary Christian mindset) can certainly imply that what we do in the present, how we live our lives now, in relation to others, determines the course of both the individual, society, and mankind in general. Some will view it as being future oriented, some as more spiritually self-focused in the here and now. It's both existential as well as theological. Apply that to Revelations/the New Testament in general. In other words, we determine our own fates. We can certainly do so within a contemporary Christian mindset/belief. As well, within that contemporary Christian mindset, we can either be pessimistic/nihlistic in our thinking, or optimistic in our hopes for mankind. I am not sure that Revelations will pre-determine one's mindset in either direction. I think it comes down to personal choice. --But it would also seem to me that a purely nihilistic, pessimistic mindset would somehow off-set, contradict all that the Gospels and New Testament have to say.
I must state, however, that this individual is spouting this out off the top of her head. She's not read Moorhead. I'm not even sure I have come close to addressing what your OP is about. However, for what it's worth, let me say the following:
1- Good luck on your paper.
2- I hope you have at least read Revelations!
3- As an afterthought, (as I know who you are and who raised you!) I have to ask: Do you even have a Bible?
I think it's just people's fears of modern day politics and current events letting them get the best of their faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
the world could end for each one of us at any time (by death).. and Christ could appear at any time in the clouds (second coming), when time will be over, all will be judged and go to their reward. We don't need to look for anything else.
The world will end at the time apointed by GOD. When someone dies, the world has ended for him or her. The world has ended for lots and lots of folks!
But, according to the bible, there is coming an absolute end to the entire physical universe. Those who believe the Bible, know the Truth. Those who don't, think those who do are crazy. Those who do think those who don't, are crazy.
I am fully convinced the Bible is the Word from GOD. If you want to know my beliefs, study the Bible. You answer the question!
But the world will not end. It doesn't say anything about the world ending in scripture. The world will not cease. Sin will. When someone's life ends, that's what has ended, their life. Not the world.
I'm sorry I missed you so late. But, let me explain something about the Book of Revelations. However, to do that I must tell you of an experience that happened to me when I was a little boy in an orphanage. My mother had passed away. While I was in the orphanage I had an experience that showed me the things to come. In this experience there was my mother, who's name was Mary, Mary Ann to be exact, who was on my left side holding my hand and I saw her in an angelic state, no wings mind you. On my right side was a figure in a white robe and I saw a hint of that man. He was very powerful, but I did not fear him. We were walking down a path and when I looked back from where I came from I was told "Do not look back, Don't be afraid these are the things to come. I have seen the things that come to this planet and I speak with authority given to me by the Father. Yes, there is going to be an end, but an end to the corrupt ways of governments and people. Great Changes have been happening and continue to happen. They are laying the foundation for which Christ to return and conquer evil. But just as there is an end there must too be a New beginning. So the world is not going to end, but change dramatically towards Jesus Christ. And when the Son comes forward to take his rightful place on earth, God the Father has given him powers over the elements. He comes with the clouds. His Word will destroy the web of nations. He will shake the earth to bring humility to man. His light can not be shunned for he is the Warrior for the truth, the Word of God.
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Oh, what the heck?
