Christians, what do you think the mark of the beast will be? (prayer, Israel)
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I'm curious to have a reply to post #272, you seem to have studied this subject thoroughly.
godspeed,
freedom
freedom: In order to understand any of these things, we must place them in the proper historical setting. John was shown things that were to shortly take place--the time was then near. Despite the questionable external "evidence" promoted by late-date advocates, the ample internal evidence strongly suggests that John was given this vision prior to A.D. 70, most likely before Nero died in June of A.D. 68 at his own hand.
Having set the historical setting, we can then attempt to find the people and events within it. Since you did not provide the scripture references which prompted your questions, I have had to assume some of them.
The mark of the beast in Revelation 13:16, 17 can be ascertained only if we first identify the beast. That, of course, is a subject unto itself. I believe the beast to be none other than Nero! The questions become: what was the mark (literal or symbolic) and why did it involve the right hand and the forehead?
Let's consider how such wording was used in the OT of obedience or allegiance to God and His laws:
Deuteronomy 6:6-8--"And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children . . . . You shall BIND them as a SIGN on your HAND, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes." The Hebrews did not literally bind them on their hands and between their eyes. The hand is the object of our actions and the frontlets between our eyes is the center of our thoughts and motives. God's words were to be the rules by which they lived and the source of their heart's allegiance to Him. This binding was symbolic of this allegiance; it "marked" them as His people. This same symbolic nature is seen in Revelation 7:3 where the people of God are seen as "sealed on their foreheads." In Revelation 14:1 they are said to have the Lamb's "Father's name written on their foreheads." They are those who did not worship the beast. The mark given to those who did worship the beast is also symbolic. All who used their right hand to do his bidding and their minds to total allegiance had his "mark."
It is not difficult for me, therefore, knowing the great and far-reaching power of the Roman empire and the authority of the Jewish leadership (both of which hated Christians), to see how such strength could control the buying and selling capabilities of others. This would have been especially true in Jerusalem where the Sandhedrin held great sway over the Jewish people. Those who were "sealed on their foreheads" by God and who openly professed ther allegiance to His Son could easily have been kept from buying and selling.
Some of these were those who were beheaded just as John the Baptist had been (Mat. 14:10; Mk. 6:16; Lk. 9:9). They were not those killed by the Jews since beheading was a Roman form of execution. They were some of those who refused to worhsip the beast--Nero.
I am not sure what reference you are using for your question about the deception of the elect, so I am assuming that you are referring to Matthew 24:24. The key here is the statement "if possible." In other words, so strong is the deception that if it were possible, even the elect could be deceived by it. That is why Jesus said to His disciples concerning the horrendous times that lay ahead for them "See, I have told you beforehand."
Your following questions seem to be taken from verses in the Revelation and Isaiah. Am I correct in that assumption? The context of Isaiah 30 deals with God's restoration of and grace toward His people. As is common in OT language, this passage contains hyperbolic language--exaggeration for the sake of demonstrating the completeness of something or the great abundance of something. Not only is the sun seen as having light seven times greater than seven days of sunlight, the moon is portrayed as having the light of the sun (vs. 26). None of these things is physically possible without destroying the earth and everything in it. Furthermore, the moon, given its chemical makeup, is not capable of such immense brightness.
Revelation 8 deals with the "thirds" and the first four trumpets. First of all, we must question how literally we are to take these things. Can the earth actually move out of its place? (Isaiah 13:13). Was there actual blood mingled with fire and hail that struck the ENTIRE earth so that all grass was burned? What is the significance of hail mixed with fire? Are they not opposites that would not easily work together--the hail putting out the fire or the fire melting the hail? But were not both seen together as instruments of God in judging the wicked? God rained hail upon Egypt (Ex. 9). In Psalm 18 God's judgment voice is associated with "hailstones and coals of fire" (vs. 13). In Psalm 148 "fire and hail" is portrayed as "fulfilling His word" (vs. 8). It is most likely that Revelation is also not dealing with literal hail and fire.
The first four trumpets of Revelation 8 affect ALL of the elements of earth (land and sea) and the heavens. This is apocalyptic imagery or figurative language. Even the smallest star is larger than the earth. Just one star smashing into the earth would completely destroy it. Yet here we see a "great" star falling from heaven yet it only falls on one-third of the rivers! Wormwood is also seen in the context of God's judgment. Note Deuteronomy 29:18--those who would turn from the true God to "serve the gods of these nations" would experience "bitterness or wormwood."
In Jeremiah 9:15 the people have forsaken God's law and have not obeyed His voice but like their fathers "walked according to the dictates of their own hears and after the Baals." The Lord says--"Behold, I will feed them, this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink." Wormwood represents the bitterness of disobedience and allegiance to any other than the true God. Did the waters in Revelation 8 actually become wormwood? Did the people die from drinking poisoned water or from the judgment of God upon them for their wickedness?
The same is true of Revelation 9:16 which speaks of the hundred million "horsemen." Notice that this follows the statement that the angels were released to "kill a third of mankind." Notice also the word that follows--"now." It indicates a further explanation of those angels ("horsemen") and their assigned task. Notice also the description of these horsemen. John "hears" the number of them. Fire, smoke and brimstone came out of their mouths. They also have "tails!" Are these angelic hosts whose power to kill is equivalent to 200,000,000 horsemen? Does it not represent a strength beyond any human resistance?
I am not sure of the references for your other questions--Daniel 11?
It is difficult if not impossible to be dogmatic about many of the things in the Revelation, but attempting to figure them out is certainly a rewarding endeavor and something which God would have us do. But again, the key to attempting to sort it all out is placing it in its proper setting. The futurist, who ignores the clear time restraints placed upon it, is left with only speculation. Those who will accept the book's clear time indicators and who, therefore, look for fulfillment in an historical setting (A.D. 70), have the ability to unlock its mysteries!
[SIZE=4]The Mark of the Beast, 666, on the forehead or right hand is instituted to force absolute allegiance to the one world government/religion. Anyone who does not carry this mark cannot buy or sell. It may consist of three pentagrams. [/SIZE]
freedom: In order to understand any of these things, we must place them in the proper historical setting. John was shown things that were to shortly take place--the time was then near. Despite the questionable external "evidence" promoted by late-date advocates, the ample internal evidence strongly suggests that John was given this vision prior to A.D. 70, most likely before Nero died in June of A.D. 68 at his own hand.
"Shortly come to pass" was addressed to His servants, in that some of the things that were to shortly come to pass is their overcoming, and election.
Revelation gave us past, present and future events.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Have you seen Him? Have All kindreds wailed yet?
How could they, not All kindreds know of Christ yet. This verse has past, present and future.
The overcoming verses in Ch. 2 are for the Present and the Future.
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 4:1 ¶ After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 5:8 ¶ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
We do not reign on earth yet, this is for the here-after.
As well not every kindred, tongue and nation has come to the knowledge of Christ's advent, certainly not when the book was written, why were the apostle's to go and preach the good news if it already was known?
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Having set the historical setting, we can then attempt to find the people and events within it. Since you did not provide the scripture references which prompted your questions, I have had to assume some of them.
See above for some of the ref. to the peoples and settings.
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The mark of the beast in Revelation 13:16, 17 can be ascertained only if we first identify the beast. That, of course, is a subject unto itself. I believe the beast to be none other than Nero! The questions become: what was the mark (literal or symbolic) and why did it involve the right hand and the forehead?
Only these shall truly understand the beast, theses are the Elect, the Saints.
Rev 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
12k of each tribe of Israel and these:
Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Again all kindreds, tongues and nations; the gospel had not reached All yet, the conclusion is how could one be Elect or sealed with God's Holy seal, without the gospel of Christ.
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Let's consider how such wording was used in the OT of obedience or allegiance to God and His laws:
Deuteronomy 6:6-8--"And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children . . . . You shall BIND them as a SIGN on your HAND, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes." The Hebrews did not literally bind them on their hands and between their eyes. The hand is the object of our actions and the frontlets between our eyes is the center of our thoughts and motives. God's words were to be the rules by which they lived and the source of their heart's allegiance to Him. This binding was symbolic of this allegiance; it "marked" them as His people. This same symbolic nature is seen in Revelation 7:3 where the people of God are seen as "sealed on their foreheads." In Revelation 14:1 they are said to have the Lamb's "Father's name written on their foreheads." They are those who did not worship the beast. The mark given to those who did worship the beast is also symbolic. All who used their right hand to do his bidding and their minds to total allegiance had his "mark."
So you are saying that All Christians could not buy or sell under Nero? That all Christians that refused to take the mark were beheaded?
If so, How were there any left to spread the gospel.
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It is not difficult for me, therefore, knowing the great and far-reaching power of the Roman empire and the authority of the Jewish leadership (both of which hated Christians), to see how such strength could control the buying and selling capabilities of others. This would have been especially true in Jerusalem where the Sandhedrin held great sway over the Jewish people. Those who were "sealed on their foreheads" by God and who openly professed ther allegiance to His Son could easily have been kept from buying and selling.
They fell, and the millenial reign of Christ never came, nor did He appear to all nations yet.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses [were] as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
When did this happen? Where is a record of 1/3 of men being killed. That is thousands of people.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
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Some of these were those who were beheaded just as John the Baptist had been (Mat. 14:10; Mk. 6:16; Lk. 9:9). They were not those killed by the Jews since beheading was a Roman form of execution. They were some of those who refused to worhsip the beast--Nero.
The only record of beheading i'm aware of in the New Testament is that of John the Baptist, where are all the others?
How did some escape if they were not allowed to buy or sell, and were beheaded for not taking Nero's mark. Surely there would have been a record of the woes that the early church endured. And how did it carry on if the true believers were all beheaded.
As well, when did this happen?
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 ¶ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
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I am not sure what reference you are using for your question about the deception of the elect, so I am assuming that you are referring to Matthew 24:24. The key here is the statement "if possible." In other words, so strong is the deception that if it were possible, even the elect could be deceived by it. That is why Jesus said to His disciples concerning the horrendous times that lay ahead for them "See, I have told you beforehand."
When the disciples asked when the end should be, Jesus answered.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
When did this happen, the Saints and Prophets being rewarded, after the earth is destroyed?
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
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Your following questions seem to be taken from verses in the Revelation and Isaiah. Am I correct in that assumption? The context of Isaiah 30 deals with God's restoration of and grace toward His people. As is common in OT language, this passage contains hyperbolic language--exaggeration for the sake of demonstrating the completeness of something or the great abundance of something. Not only is the sun seen as having light seven times greater than seven days of sunlight, the moon is portrayed as having the light of the sun (vs. 26). None of these things is physically possible without destroying the earth and everything in it. Furthermore, the moon, given its chemical makeup, is not capable of such immense brightness.
That would be true, if God does not step in to stop the utter destruction of everyone and everything. He does step in and few survive.
THe tremendous light of the cosmic ray will be tremendous, without our protective atmosphere the full force of light will hit earth, and many will curse God and die.
THe moon will have a tremendous pull on the earths oceans, and the towers will fall, all great cities are built on coastlines and water ways, they will sink into the ocean.
Isa 30:25 And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers [and] streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.
Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
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Revelation 8 deals with the "thirds" and the first four trumpets. First of all, we must question how literally we are to take these things. Can the earth actually move out of its place? (Isaiah 13:13). Was there actual blood mingled with fire and hail that struck the ENTIRE earth so that all grass was burned? What is the significance of hail mixed with fire? Are they not opposites that would not easily work together--the hail putting out the fire or the fire melting the hail? But were not both seen together as instruments of God in judging the wicked? God rained hail upon Egypt (Ex. 9). In Psalm 18 God's judgment voice is associated with "hailstones and coals of fire" (vs. 13). In Psalm 148 "fire and hail" is portrayed as "fulfilling His word" (vs. 8). It is most likely that Revelation is also not dealing with literal hail and fire.
Yes the earth shall move out of its place, the middle east has the most shallow oil fields in the world, Hundreds of nuclear bombs would turn this planet into a wobbling mess, and mover her out of her place, rending the veil of her atmosphere causing a nuclear winter at first, then with no atmosphere, a burning heat, in that none would live that did not hide themselves in the dens (bunkers) and caves of the earth. Praying that they would cave in to avoid the horror of what man has done. The hailstones of oil and fire blasting into the atmosphere would indeed be hailing fire, and turn the waters into wormwood.
The great rivers of the middle east, would all be polluted with nuclear radiation.
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The first four trumpets of Revelation 8 affect ALL of the elements of earth (land and sea) and the heavens. This is apocalyptic imagery or figurative language. Even the smallest star is larger than the earth. Just one star smashing into the earth would completely destroy it. Yet here we see a "great" star falling from heaven yet it only falls on one-third of the rivers! Wormwood is also seen in the context of God's judgment. Note Deuteronomy 29:18--those who would turn from the true God to "serve the gods of these nations" would experience "bitterness or wormwood."
A missile flying through the air looks like a shooting star, it is great because of the impact damage that it creates. A nuclear warhead is a falling star.
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In Jeremiah 9:15 the people have forsaken God's law and have not obeyed His voice but like their fathers "walked according to the dictates of their own hears and after the Baals." The Lord says--"Behold, I will feed them, this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink." Wormwood represents the bitterness of disobedience and allegiance to any other than the true God. Did the waters in Revelation 8 actually become wormwood? Did the people die from drinking poisoned water or from the judgment of God upon them for their wickedness?
Wormwood in Russian (Gog) is Chernobyl, it is where the nuclear matter for weapons is created and generated.
Wormwood is a substance that pollutes and kills painfully and slowly. Men shall pray for death, and it shall flee from them. THere was no man made nuclear material at the time of this vision/writing. Wormwood is the perfect definition of radiation posioning.
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The same is true of Revelation 9:16 which speaks of the hundred million "horsemen." Notice that this follows the statement that the angels were released to "kill a third of mankind." Notice also the word that follows--"now." It indicates a further explanation of those angels ("horsemen") and their assigned task. Notice also the description of these horsemen. John "hears" the number of them. Fire, smoke and brimstone came out of their mouths. They also have "tails!" Are these angelic hosts whose power to kill is equivalent to 200,000,000 horsemen? Does it not represent a strength beyond any human resistance?
I believe it is a description of a modern warfare army, how stinger missiles have power in their tails, (rocket propulsion) Fire, smoke and brimstone all represent bombs of different design, chemical, biological, and nuclear.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
When did all of this happen?
Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
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It is difficult if not impossible to be dogmatic about many of the things in the Revelation, but attempting to figure them out is certainly a rewarding endeavor and something which God would have us do. But again, the key to attempting to sort it all out is placing it in its proper setting. The futurist, who ignores the clear time restraints placed upon it, is left with only speculation. Those who will accept the book's clear time indicators and who, therefore, look for fulfillment in an historical setting (A.D. 70), have the ability to unlock its mysteries!
How do you come to terms with the past, present and future aspect of Revelation. If i remeber correctly, Revelation was not available until 100 A.D.
[SIZE=4]The Mark of the Beast, 666, on the forehead or right hand is instituted to force absolute allegiance to the one world government/religion. Anyone who does not carry this mark cannot buy or sell. It may consist of three pentagrams. [/SIZE]
mrsbratqueen: How does that fit in the time frame of those things which were to SHORTLY take place?
"Shortly come to pass" was addressed to His servants, in that some of the things that were to shortly come to pass is their overcoming, and election.
Revelation gave us past, present and future events.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Have you seen Him? Have All kindreds wailed yet?
How could they, not All kindreds know of Christ yet. This verse has past, present and future.
The overcoming verses in Ch. 2 are for the Present and the Future.
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 4:1 ¶ After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 5:8 ¶ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
We do not reign on earth yet, this is for the here-after.
As well not every kindred, tongue and nation has come to the knowledge of Christ's advent, certainly not when the book was written, why were the apostle's to go and preach the good news if it already was known?
See above for some of the ref. to the peoples and settings.
Only these shall truly understand the beast, theses are the Elect, the Saints.
Rev 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
12k of each tribe of Israel and these:
Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Again all kindreds, tongues and nations; the gospel had not reached All yet, the conclusion is how could one be Elect or sealed with God's Holy seal, without the gospel of Christ.
So you are saying that All Christians could not buy or sell under Nero? That all Christians that refused to take the mark were beheaded?
If so, How were there any left to spread the gospel.
They fell, and the millenial reign of Christ never came, nor did He appear to all nations yet.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses [were] as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
When did this happen? Where is a record of 1/3 of men being killed. That is thousands of people.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
The only record of beheading i'm aware of in the New Testament is that of John the Baptist, where are all the others?
How did some escape if they were not allowed to buy or sell, and were beheaded for not taking Nero's mark. Surely there would have been a record of the woes that the early church endured. And how did it carry on if the true believers were all beheaded.
As well, when did this happen?
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 ¶ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
When the disciples asked when the end should be, Jesus answered.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
When did this happen, the Saints and Prophets being rewarded, after the earth is destroyed?
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
That would be true, if God does not step in to stop the utter destruction of everyone and everything. He does step in and few survive.
THe tremendous light of the cosmic ray will be tremendous, without our protective atmosphere the full force of light will hit earth, and many will curse God and die.
THe moon will have a tremendous pull on the earths oceans, and the towers will fall, all great cities are built on coastlines and water ways, they will sink into the ocean.
Isa 30:25 And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers [and] streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.
Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Yes the earth shall move out of its place, the middle east has the most shallow oil fields in the world, Hundreds of nuclear bombs would turn this planet into a wobbling mess, and mover her out of her place, rending the veil of her atmosphere causing a nuclear winter at first, then with no atmosphere, a burning heat, in that none would live that did not hide themselves in the dens (bunkers) and caves of the earth. Praying that they would cave in to avoid the horror of what man has done. The hailstones of oil and fire blasting into the atmosphere would indeed be hailing fire, and turn the waters into wormwood.
The great rivers of the middle east, would all be polluted with nuclear radiation.
A missile flying through the air looks like a shooting star, it is great because of the impact damage that it creates. A nuclear warhead is a falling star.
Wormwood in Russian (Gog) is Chernobyl, it is where the nuclear matter for weapons is created and generated.
Wormwood is a substance that pollutes and kills painfully and slowly. Men shall pray for death, and it shall flee from them. THere was no man made nuclear material at the time of this vision/writing. Wormwood is the perfect definition of radiation posioning.
I believe it is a description of a modern warfare army, how stinger missiles have power in their tails, (rocket propulsion) Fire, smoke and brimstone all represent bombs of different design, chemical, biological, and nuclear.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
When did all of this happen?
Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
How do you come to terms with the past, present and future aspect of Revelation. If i remeber correctly, Revelation was not available until 100 A.D.
godspeed,
freedom
freedom: You can reason away the time statements if you want and continue to speculate along with the Hal Lindseys and Jack Van Impes of the world, but the fact remains that John was shown the things that were in his day to SHORTLY take place BECAUSE the time was then NEAR! It is within that clear time frame that the things which John had seen, was seeing, and was ABOUT TO see took place--the things that were to shortly take place!
The wording in Revelation 1:19 is: mellei genesthai. Mello (from which mellei comes) means "about to." Unfortunately, the many times that this word occurs in the NT, it is rarely translated; the translators incorrectly giving it a simple future expression. I have done an extensive study of this often neglected word (mello) and found that often when it occurs in noneschatological verses it is rendered correctly "about to;" but when it occurs in noneschatological contexts, it is either ignored or the verb is given a simple future tense. The correct rendering of Revelation 1:19, I believe (giving proper attention to mello) should read:
"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which are about to take place after this."
In case the readers did not understand the time frame in chapter one, the Revelation unfolds and THEN in the very last chapter, the angel repeats it (22:6, 10)--"And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must SHORTLY [en tachei] take place . . . . Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is AT HAND." Daniel was told to "shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end" (Dan. 12:4) because in his day the time was far off; John was told to not seal the words of the prophecy because in his day the time was NEAR!
Revelation 1:7 does not deal with all people everywhere. Notice the very Jewish subject matter here. Notice also that those who pierced Him are involved! The cloud coming again is a reference to a coming in judgment and not a literal appearing of Christ in the clouds. It is the same cloud coming referenced in Matthew 16:27 that was to be seen in the lifetimes of some of those standing there with Jesus; it is the same cloud coming referenced in Matthew 24:30 that was to occurred in THAT generation in which Jesus lived [note also the very Jewish reference to the "TRIBES of the LAND"]; it is the same cloud coming that was to be seen by that historical Sanhedrin and high priest, Caiaphas (Matthew 26:64)!
I have written before concerning cloud "comings" in judgment (e.g. judgment on Egypt, Ezek. 32; judgment on Babylon, Isa. 13; judgment on Edom, Isa. 34). God did not personally, physically or visibly come--He judged through the instrumentation of wicked nations. "Every eye" is used in a restrictive sense in the same way it is when a child comes home from a school dance and says "everyone was there!" Clearly, not everyone everywhere was there. It is restricted to the context of the school dance! "Every" is used here in the restrictive sense of the "tribes of the land"--that pre-A.D. 70 Jewish world. Every tribe (all the Jews of that day) mourned because of Him because being Jews they understood the significance of the destruction of the Temple and the city (it was a huge part of their history!). As in the previous destruction in OT times, the Jews knew that it came from God's hand and they mourned!
Revelation 5:9 does not say that "every kindred, tongue and nation" had "come to the knowledge of Christ's advent" as you stated. This is why I am such a stickler for words and have been criticized for it. Notice the prepositional phrase "OUT OF every tribe, and tongue and people and nation." Salvation was provided to the elect people out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation even in that day. Paul, writing to the Colossians, said: ". . . the hope of the gospel which YOU heard, which WAS PREACHED to EVERY creature under heaven, of which I, PAUL, became a minister" (1:23). He further wrote: ". . . because of the hope that is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, which has come to you, as IT HAS IN ALL THE WORLD." Matthew 24:14 and Revelation 5:9! The verb (agorazo--to redeem) is in the aorist active indicative form suggesting a past completed action with ongoing effects. He HAS redeemed all of His elect from every tongue, tribe and nation through His blood even though all have not yet come to Him.
In the CONTEXT of Revelation 9 we see the actual great river Euphrates. According to Josephus much of the army that invaded Jerusalem came from this very region (Wars, Book V, chapter i). The loosing of the angels is the loosing of this vast army. Some take this as actual heavenly hosts numbering two hundred million others take it the number as symbolic of a great amount. Either way, the symbolism is clear--"breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were LIKE heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. . . . their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are LIKE serpents, having heads; and with them they do hurt." Key word: "like." [Are you looking for such actual horses?] According to Josephus, 1,100,000 Jews were killed in the Jewish Wars with Rome.
Do you not see some significance in the repetition of "a third?"
Third part of the trees (8:7)
Third part of the sea (8:8)
Third part of the creatures (8:9)
Third part of the ships
Third part of the rivers (8:10)
Third part of the waters (8:11)
Third part of the sun (8:12)
Third part of the moon
Third part of the stars
Third part of men (9:15)
Do you think these are exact amounts? Are the sun and moon and stars to be understood literally? For if they are, then this would have such an impact upon the earth, that it could not survive.
As for reigning on the earth--are not Christians (those loved by Christ and washed from our sins in His own blood) "kings and priests? (Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). Did not Jesus say that He would build His church and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it--the church which was given the keys of the "kingdom of heaven" (Mat. 16:18)?
Just because there are not other specific mentions of beheadings does not negate the fact that such executions occurred. The beheading of John the Baptist is ample support for such occurrences. From the Encyclopedia Britannica: Beheading was "a mode of executing by which the head is severed from the body. The ancient Greeks and Romans regarded it as a most honourable form of death. Before execution the criminal was tied to a stake and whipped with rods. In early times an ax was used, but later a sword, which was considered a more honourable instrument of death, was used for Roman citizens." While it cannot be supported, Chritian traditions offer beheading as the means by which Paul was martyred.
There is no doubt that these things are difficult to ascertain. The advantage the futurist has is that since in his mind these things have not yet happened he can speculate whatever he wants. And the speculation is almost as varied as the number of futurists! [e.g. "nuclear bombs," "missiles flying through the air"--all speculation] Who can dispute them? It hasn't happened yet!
But the fact remains that the book itself gives the time frame for the unfolding of these events. Yes, Revelation gives us past, present and future, but not the distant future. It was the future that was still NEAR to John's day. It involved the things that had been, the things that were, and the things that were ABOUT TO BE (mello)!
freedom: You can reason away the time statements if you want and continue to speculate along with the Hal Lindseys and Jack Van Impes of the world, but the fact remains that John was shown the things that were in his day to SHORTLY take place BECAUSE the time was then NEAR! It is within that clear time frame that the things which John had seen, was seeing, and was ABOUT TO see took place--the things that were to shortly take place!
Speculation is not limited to televangelists. What you are saying does not fit with scripture.
Quote:
The wording in Revelation 1:19 is: mellei genesthai. Mello (from which mellei comes) means "about to." Unfortunately, the many times that this word occurs in the NT, it is rarely translated; the translators incorrectly giving it a simple future expression. I have done an extensive study of this often neglected word (mello) and found that often when it occurs in noneschatological verses it is rendered correctly "about to;" but when it occurs in noneschatological contexts, it is either ignored or the verb is given a simple future tense. The correct rendering of Revelation 1:19, I believe (giving proper attention to mello) should read:
Jesus used the term "at hand" as well, which many misunderstand. It is that it is available now, the overcoming verses of Revelation are the shortly to come events, for all those that live and keep the commandments of Christ.
Quote:
"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which are about to take place after this."
In case the readers did not understand the time frame in chapter one, the Revelation unfolds and THEN in the very last chapter, the angel repeats it (22:6, 10)--"And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must SHORTLY [en tachei] take place . . . . Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is AT HAND." Daniel was told to "shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end" (Dan. 12:4) because in his day the time was far off; John was told to not seal the words of the prophecy because in his day the time was NEAR!
To God only a day or two away for some events.
Quote:
Revelation 1:7 does not deal with all people everywhere. Notice the very Jewish subject matter here. Notice also that those who pierced Him are involved! The cloud coming again is a reference to a coming in judgment and not a literal appearing of Christ in the clouds. It is the same cloud coming referenced in Matthew 16:27 that was to be seen in the lifetimes of some of those standing there with Jesus; it is the same cloud coming referenced in Matthew 24:30 that was to occurred in THAT generation in which Jesus lived [note also the very Jewish reference to the "TRIBES of the LAND"]; it is the same cloud coming that was to be seen by that historical Sanhedrin and high priest, Caiaphas (Matthew 26:64)!
Yet it does, to All kindreds, tongues and nations, even that the gospel would be spred to the whole world, then the end would come.
Quote:
I have written before concerning cloud "comings" in judgment (e.g. judgment on Egypt, Ezek. 32; judgment on Babylon, Isa. 13; judgment on Edom, Isa. 34). God did not personally, physically or visibly come--He judged through the instrumentation of wicked nations. "Every eye" is used in a restrictive sense in the same way it is when a child comes home from a school dance and says "everyone was there!" Clearly, not everyone everywhere was there. It is restricted to the context of the school dance! "Every" is used here in the restrictive sense of the "tribes of the land"--that pre-A.D. 70 Jewish world. Every tribe (all the Jews of that day) mourned because of Him because being Jews they understood the significance of the destruction of the Temple and the city (it was a huge part of their history!). As in the previous destruction in OT times, the Jews knew that it came from God's hand and they mourned!
This is a spiritual and actual event, the dead shall see, and the living.
Quote:
Revelation 5:9 does not say that "every kindred, tongue and nation" had "come to the knowledge of Christ's advent" as you stated. This is why I am such a stickler for words and have been criticized for it. Notice the prepositional phrase "OUT OF every tribe, and tongue and people and nation." Salvation was provided to the elect people out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation even in that day. Paul, writing to the Colossians, said: ". . . the hope of the gospel which YOU heard, which WAS PREACHED to EVERY creature under heaven, of which I, PAUL, became a minister" (1:23). He further wrote: ". . . because of the hope that is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, which has come to you, as IT HAS IN ALL THE WORLD." Matthew 24:14 and Revelation 5:9! The verb (agorazo--to redeem) is in the aorist active indicative form suggesting a past completed action with ongoing effects. He HAS redeemed all of His elect from every tongue, tribe and nation through His blood even though all have not yet come to Him.
They may not accept the advent, but all would have the opportunity to know and accept of it.
In the CONTEXT of Revelation 9 we see the actual great river Euphrates. According to Josephus much of the army that invaded Jerusalem came from this very region (Wars, Book V, chapter i). The loosing of the angels is the loosing of this vast army. Some take this as actual heavenly hosts numbering two hundred million others take it the number as symbolic of a great amount. Either way, the symbolism is clear--"breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were LIKE heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. . . . their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are LIKE serpents, having heads; and with them they do hurt." Key word: "like." [Are you looking for such actual horses?] According to Josephus, 1,100,000 Jews were killed in the Jewish Wars with Rome.
Quote:
Do you not see some significance in the repetition of "a third?"
Third part of the trees (8:7)
Third part of the sea (8:8)
Third part of the creatures (8:9)
Third part of the ships
Third part of the rivers (8:10)
Third part of the waters (8:11)
Third part of the sun (8:12)
Third part of the moon
Third part of the stars
Third part of men (9:15)
Yes, the event will take place in the holy land and the middle east.
Quote:
Do you think these are exact amounts? Are the sun and moon and stars to be understood literally? For if they are, then this would have such an impact upon the earth, that it could not survive.
And judgement came to those that destroy the earth, God will step in in order to stop the total destruction.
Quote:
As for reigning on the earth--are not Christians (those loved by Christ and washed from our sins in His own blood) "kings and priests? (Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). Did not Jesus say that He would build His church and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it--the church which was given the keys of the "kingdom of heaven" (Mat. 16:18)?
And they won't prevail against it, but Hades will take a huge bite out of it. You reap what you sow, and we have sown destruction in these latter days.
Quote:
Just because there are not other specific mentions of beheadings does not negate the fact that such executions occurred. The beheading of John the Baptist is ample support for such occurrences. From the Encyclopedia Britannica: Beheading was "a mode of executing by which the head is severed from the body. The ancient Greeks and Romans regarded it as a most honourable form of death. Before execution the criminal was tied to a stake and whipped with rods. In early times an ax was used, but later a sword, which was considered a more honourable instrument of death, was used for Roman citizens." While it cannot be supported, Chritian traditions offer beheading as the means by which Paul was martyred.
Clearly nothing on the scale that Revelation describes. Who did not buy or sell, what was the mark of Nero?
Quote:
There is no doubt that these things are difficult to ascertain. The advantage the futurist has is that since in his mind these things have not yet happened he can speculate whatever he wants. And the speculation is almost as varied as the number of futurists! [e.g. "nuclear bombs," "missiles flying through the air"--all speculation] Who can dispute them? It hasn't happened yet!
They actually are fairly simple, Revelation clearly describes a great war to take place, destruction of the earth to a near fatal degree, man leaving his first love Christ. And the Lord returning to bind Satan, and Raise the Saints.
Quote:
But the fact remains that the book itself gives the time frame for the unfolding of these events. Yes, Revelation gives us past, present and future, but not the distant future. It was the future that was still NEAR to John's day. It involved the things that had been, the things that were, and the things that were ABOUT TO BE (mello)!
Speculation is not limited to televangelists. What you are saying does not fit with scripture.
Jesus used the term "at hand" as well, which many misunderstand. It is that it is available now, the overcoming verses of Revelation are the shortly to come events, for all those that live and keep the commandments of Christ.
To God only a day or two away for some events.
Yet it does, to All kindreds, tongues and nations, even that the gospel would be spred to the whole world, then the end would come.
This is a spiritual and actual event, the dead shall see, and the living.
They may not accept the advent, but all would have the opportunity to know and accept of it.
In the CONTEXT of Revelation 9 we see the actual great river Euphrates. According to Josephus much of the army that invaded Jerusalem came from this very region (Wars, Book V, chapter i). The loosing of the angels is the loosing of this vast army. Some take this as actual heavenly hosts numbering two hundred million others take it the number as symbolic of a great amount. Either way, the symbolism is clear--"breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were LIKE heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. . . . their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are LIKE serpents, having heads; and with them they do hurt." Key word: "like." [Are you looking for such actual horses?] According to Josephus, 1,100,000 Jews were killed in the Jewish Wars with Rome.
Yes, the event will take place in the holy land and the middle east.
And judgement came to those that destroy the earth, God will step in in order to stop the total destruction.
And they won't prevail against it, but Hades will take a huge bite out of it. You reap what you sow, and we have sown destruction in these latter days.
Clearly nothing on the scale that Revelation describes. Who did not buy or sell, what was the mark of Nero?
They actually are fairly simple, Revelation clearly describes a great war to take place, destruction of the earth to a near fatal degree, man leaving his first love Christ. And the Lord returning to bind Satan, and Raise the Saints.
Yes, shortly, and hereafter.
godspeed,
freedom
freedom: You are not being honest with the very simple words of Scripture. What about "the time is NEAR" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10). Why will you not accept these words at their face value and place the Revelation in its proper context--pre-A.D. 70!
It is clear that you cannot abide by any teaching that removes you and your generation from the fufillment of this Book. This is a common futurist trait. You cannot imagine that God would somehow leave you out. You love the excitement in the futurist position. You love the thought that YOU could be one who is "raptured" out of this world. You love the thought of a giant Jesus coming back and standing on the earth with every eye seeing Him. Despite the fact that the Scriptures do NOT teach such fiction.
If you will not accept the clear time statements (and their are over 100!), how can you ever hope to understand the difficult things in the Word?
Again, "the time is NEAR," (Revelation 1:3; 22:10). Please do not tell people that you think Jesus' return is near, because, frankly, freedom, you do not understand the meaning of that word. It does not have one meaning for you and another meaning for Scripture!
I know it appears to most here that I am simply trying to be right. I hope that is the case only when the Scriptures are behind that attempt. I am desperately trying to get fellow believers to study their Bibles and to back up what they believe with sound biblical principles. Part of that involves taking simple words at their face value. Do you have problems with time words such as "soon," and "near," and "at hand," and "shortly," and "about to" in passage that have no eschatological significance? Do you? Or do these words change meaning when they are found in eschatological passages? You cannot change the meanings of words or pick and choose where you will have them mean one thing and when they will mean something else?
Does not SOON mean SOON, freedom? Does not AT HAND mean AT HAND? Why will you not accept that?
Have you studied Josephus? Although not inspired, he was an eyewitness to the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. You would be appalled by the horrendous devastating events of that time. Have you even attempted to see how the things you are looking for in our future might have easily happened then? This is what will be required of you should you ever decide to be honest with the time statements. As I told Simple Living, I pray that the many time statements will trouble you everytime you read them. I pray that when you read "this generation" in all of the texts in which it is found, that it will trouble you. I pray that someday when you are reading the book of James and you read "the coming of the Lord is AT HAND" that it will trouble you. I pray that someday, when you are reading the book of 1 Peter and you read "the end of ALL things is AT HAND," that it will trouble you.
I challenge you to do a personal study of these words and make note of when you give these words their normal, everyday, common usage and when you ignore or redefine them. Perhaps you will find that you are able to take them at face value when they do not deal with "last things," but do not take them that when when they do!
Words mean things--even little words. And those little words can be the key to understanding or misunderstanding.
"This generation" will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place." It is a difficult task for the student of God's Word to do the necessary hard work to get into the Hebrew mind and study the OT usage of apocalyptic prophetic language in order to see the past fulfillment of Matthew 29-31 in THAT generation. It is far easier to brush away "this generation" or give it a meaning it never, never has elsewhere!
"Study to show yourselves approved unto God, workmen not needing to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (2 Tim. 2:15).
In Christ, Preterist
p.s. I answered your questions regarding buying and selling and the mark of Nero. Did you not read it?
freedom: You are not being honest with the very simple words of Scripture. What about "the time is NEAR" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10). Why will you not accept these words at their face value and place the Revelation in its proper context--pre-A.D. 70!
1.The time is near for Christ manifesting himself to those that keep His commandments, and are transfigured/quickened etc..
2. The time is near for the return of Christ in His Kingdom. A day to the lord is a thousand yrs. etc....
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It is clear that you cannot abide by any teaching that removes you and your generation from the fufillment of this Book. This is a common futurist trait. You cannot imagine that God would somehow leave you out. You love the excitement in the futurist position. You love the thought that YOU could be one who is "raptured" out of this world. You love the thought of a giant Jesus coming back and standing on the earth with every eye seeing Him. Despite the fact that the Scriptures do NOT teach such fiction.
I can if it makes sense, clearly most of Revelation has not been fulfilled, the Kings and rulers army is hundreds of millions, these are not angels souly.
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If you will not accept the clear time statements (and their are over 100!), how can you ever hope to understand the difficult things in the Word?
The world does not concern me, as much as spiritual understanding of how the world shall be effected.
Quote:
Again, "the time is NEAR," (Revelation 1:3; 22:10). Please do not tell people that you think Jesus' return is near, because, frankly, freedom, you do not understand the meaning of that word. It does not have one meaning for you and another meaning for Scripture!
THe time is near, it is closer everyday. Do not fear it, or deny it. It is a day of Glory for the Kingdom of God and those that seek His Kingdom.
Quote:
I know it appears to most here that I am simply trying to be right. I hope that is the case only when the Scriptures are behind that attempt. I am desperately trying to get fellow believers to study their Bibles and to back up what they believe with sound biblical principles. Part of that involves taking simple words at their face value. Do you have problems with time words such as "soon," and "near," and "at hand," and "shortly," and "about to" in passage that have no eschatological significance? Do you? Or do these words change meaning when they are found in eschatological passages? You cannot change the meanings of words or pick and choose where you will have them mean one thing and when they will mean something else?
I don't have a difficult time with soon, near, or any other designation, i do think that what you think is near, soon, is not the fullfillment of Jesus returning in His kingdom and binding Satan for a 1,000 yrs.
Do you think Satan has been bound?
Does not SOON mean SOON, freedom? Does not AT HAND mean AT HAND? Why will you not accept that?
Quote:
Have you studied Josephus? Although not inspired, he was an eyewitness to the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. You would be appalled by the horrendous devastating events of that time. Have you even attempted to see how the things you are looking for in our future might have easily happened then? This is what will be required of you should you ever decide to be honest with the time statements.
Yes, those events were foretold by Jesus, and they did happen soon, even at the death and ressurection of Christ. They are not the complete events that Revelation depicts.
Quote:
As I told Simple Living, I pray that the many time statements will trouble you everytime you read them. I pray that when you read "this generation" in all of the texts in which it is found, that it will trouble you. I pray that someday when you are reading the book of James and you read "the coming of the Lord is AT HAND" that it will trouble you. I pray that someday, when you are reading the book of 1 Peter and you read "the end of ALL things is AT HAND," that it will trouble you.
THe coming of the Lord is at hand, to anyone that lives Christ, He will return and He and the Father shall make their abode with anyone that lives the commandments. Not too many people have taken Him up on that promise.
Quote:
I challenge you to do a personal study of these words and make note of when you give these words their normal, everyday, common usage and when you ignore or redefine them. Perhaps you will find that you are able to take them at face value when they do not deal with "last things," but do not take them that when when they do!
I have friend, and they speak of the now, and the future.
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Words mean things--even little words. And those little words can be the key to understanding or misunderstanding.
They can also be the letter that killeth, we must be vigilant in understanding, and i believe you are, but that you don't have the full story of how Jesus will return to any that are prepared to recieve of His fullness. Even now.
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"This generation" will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place." It is a difficult task for the student of God's Word to do the necessary hard work to get into the Hebrew mind and study the OT usage of apocalyptic prophetic language in order to see the past fulfillment of Matthew 29-31 in THAT generation. It is far easier to brush away "this generation" or give it a meaning it never, never has elsewhere!
THat generation had the same promise as the full generation of this earth's graduating class.
Quote:
"Study to show yourselves approved unto God, workmen not needing to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (2 Tim. 2:15).
In Christ, Preterist
p.s. I answered your questions regarding buying and selling and the mark of Nero. Did you not read it?
I will re-ead, thanks for your patience and desire to know and share.
THe reason for the mark is that one may buy and sell.
godspeed,
freedom
Freedom,
I think that it might have something to do with buying and selling that which is spiritual not physical
Isa 55:1 "Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Isa 55:2 Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your labor for that which does not satisfy? Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good, and delight yourselves in rich food.
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my steadfast, sure love for David.
Isa 55:4 Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples.
Isa 55:5 Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, because of the LORD your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you.
Isa 55:6 "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;
Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
Isa 55:12 "For you shall go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Isa 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress; instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall make a name for the LORD, an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off."
This is not spiritual hunger or thirsting that pertains to the mark of the beast. People will physically starve and die of thirst if they do not receive the 'physical' mark. The life of a martyr for Christ during the reign of the AntiChrist will mean physical death either by starvation or being killed.
It is much more wise to be prepared to be caught up with Christ so one does not need to be concerned with becoming a martyr and enduring this kind of suffering. That's why it is so very important for Christians to warn of the things to come and not sugar coat it.
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