Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If my memory seves me, most arguments that use KJV errors as the central reason and basis comes from the likes of LDS or JW's.
The ability to read Greek lexicon is soley based on what you want it to read.
Well, in the particular case I'm speaking of (Sheol/Hades/Gahenna) all the scholars agree. It has nothing to do with cults or interpretations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
The Bible simply states:
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
How do I know I have the Spirit? I don't find excuses and faults about Gods Word.
"He that believes and is baptized will be saved"
"He that believes not, will be damned"
I understand and believe what you're saying about having to be Spirit led - no question there.
I actually love and appreciate the KJV in many ways, but they really messed up a few things as well. BTW - acknowledging the errors in a particular translation doesn't make one an unbeliever and doesn't mean one does not have the Spirit of God. That's just a silly statement. IMO.
The question is how can we have a real conversation if one party will not admit the many easily provable errors in the KJV?
The original KJV had over 18,000 (if memory serves me correctly) confirmed errors (that's why so many revisions). However, all I'm showing here is how Jesus used their (the Pharisees) false doctrine against them. You'll notice that nothing is said in the Rich man/Lazarus parable about faith or salvation (!).
All the 'hell fire' scriptures you quoted from Jesus are referring to 'Gehenna" not 'hades' so absolutely the KJV is in error here, as anyone with the ability to read any Greek lexicon or concordance can see for themselves.
The only thing you referenced even close is where God said His anger burns to the lowest parts of the earth (hades).
Like I said - anyone can easily study this out.
blessings,
- Byron
Byron,
Hell, Hades as explained by Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionary hebrew word #7578 and Greek word 1067 H7585
שְׁאֹל שְׁאוֹל
she’ôl she’ôl sheh-ole',sheh-ole'
From H7592 (broken link); hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates:—grave, hell, pit.
G1067
γέεννα
geenna gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516 (broken link)] and [H2011 (broken link)]); valleyof (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.
Please tell what what source you're using for definations. Hell, Hades, Gehenna is all the same place, just differnent terms
Helloooo!!!!! When did the Great River Euphrates dry up? Anybody. You know why you can't answer this question? Because it hasn't happened YET.
Therefore, I charge you to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, according to the Words of God. The Words of God is meant to be believed in it's entirety. We don't get to pick and choose what parts we are going to honor, and what parts we are going to ignore.
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,'
says the Lord.
"For as the heavens are higher than
earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
"For as the rain comes down,
And the snow from heaven,
And do not return here,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower,
And bread to the eater,
So shall My word be that goes forth
from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for
which I sent it." (Isaiah 55 versus 8-11)
Believe all of it! Warning: Deceptions of False Teachers
For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lust of the flesh, through licentiousness,
the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption;
for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
But it has happened to them according to true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, havingwashed, to her wallowing in the mire."
Please, return to the truth, the holy words of our Lord Jesus Christ before it's to late. It is my duty as sister in Christ Jesus to tell you that the doctrine of preterism is false. I am not going to sit here a sugar coat anything so that feelings don't get hurt. That's not me. I am boldly telling you Christ is coming again and all eyes shall behold Him, every knee shall bow, every tongue will confess that He is Lord of All!!
Your sister in Christ Jesus
Last edited by Betsey Lane; 07-03-2008 at 08:57 AM..
Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of kings from the east might be prepared.
What were they preparing for? To Golf? No For the battle of Armageddon. My belief; not concept, comes from the Book of Life. Undisputed.
Once again: When did the Great River Euphrates dry up?
Then you say: Shortly, Then, Near, Soon, etc. etc. Do you not know that these are all pertaining to time? You, who just got here "yesterday", knows better about God's timing than Moses, the man of God?
Psalms (Chapter 90 verse 4):
For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past,
And Peter? ................... 2 Peter (Chapter 3 verses 8):
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Again I ask, When did the Great River Euphrates dry up?
PLEASE! Betsey Lane, you CANNOT negate simple time words with 2 Peter 3 or Psalm 90. God is not bound by time--but we are. That is ALL these passages are saying. BUT when He communicates with us, He does so in terms appropriate and meaningful to us.
What are you saying, Betsey Lane? You are not making any sense. SHORTLY, THEN, NEAR, SOON mean exactly what they say--SHORTLY, THEN, NEAR, SOON! Do you not use these SAME words in your everyday life? Are you saying God inspired the writers of the NT to use such time statements but that they really having no meaning? That is ridiculous. I cannot believe the lame, irrational, outrageous arguments futurists use to wipe out clear time indicators!
You will not accept the plain words of Scripture regardless how clearly they are presented to you. That is sad! You know full well that when you read time indicators in non-eschatological passages, you have no trouble with them! Stop misusing 2 Peter 3. I'm far past being sick and tired of this verse being abused to teach that every time indicator God gives us in the Scriptures has no meaning! The truth is this, Betsey Lane--You do not like what the time indicators clearly teach, so you twist God's Word (2 Peter 3) in an attempt to reason them away. You will never discover the truths of God's Word through such a dishonest fashion. What saith the Scriptures?
In the Garden, Jesus came to His sleeping disciples and said--"Behold, the hour is AT HAND, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is AT HAND" (Mat. 26:45). This is the SON OF GOD, who created the world and time! What did HE mean by the use of AT HAND (engus)? Was He thinking: With the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousands years are as a day? I don't think so!
Jesus speaking to His disciples about His coming said, "When its [fig tree] branch puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is NEAR" (Mk 13:28). What did Jesus mean? That summer could be thousands of years away because "with the Lord . . . . !!!!!! No. He used the word "near" (engus) in its normal, common, usual, everyday sense and expected His disciples to take it that way!
Jesus spoke the Parable of the Minas because He was NEAR (engus) Jerusalem. Was He a short way from Jerusalem or was He far away? What does the word NEAR mean, Betsey Lane?
John 2:13 says: "Now the Passover of the Jews was AT HAND" (engus). What was it, Betsey Lane? Was it about to happen or was it an event that was far, far off? The word is clear!
"Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was NEAR" (John 6:4).
"they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing NEAR the boat" (6:19).
"Tiberias, NEAR the place where they ate bread" (6:23).
"Now the feast of Tabernacles was AT HAND" (7:2).
"Now Bethany was NEAR Jerusalem" (11:18).
"went from there into the country NEAR the wilderness" (11:54).
"And the Passover of the Jews was NEAR (11:55).
"NEAR the city" (19:20).
"tomb was NEARBY" (19:42).
"NEAR Jerusalem" (Acts 1:12).
"Lydda was NEAR Joppa" (Acts 9:38).
"The Lord is AT HAND" (Phil. 4:5).
There are many, many others. But I suspect that when it comes to time indicators that have no eschatological significance, you easily give them their normal meanings without appealing to 2 Peter 3. They do NOT change meaning simply because they are found in eschatological contexts!
AT HAND means AT HAND. SHORTLY means SHORTLY. NEAR means NEAR. SOON means SOON. And you know it, Betsey Lane!
A day is AS a thousand years WITH WITH WITH WITH the Lord and not with us. And a thousand years are AS a day WITH the Lord. Do you believe in a literal thousand-year reign of Christ? According to your understanding of 2 Peter 3, maybe it will only last one day--after all, WITH the Lord a thousand years are as a day!!!!! Do you see what ridiculous conclusions can come from your misunderstanding and abuse of this passage?
So now let's consider your question about the River Euphrates. I see by your question that NOW you want to accept words literally! Time words have no clear meaning but the drying up of the River Euphrates does! How consistent!
First of all, in spite of your illogical resistance to it, the timing of the Revelation is CLEARLY given in both the first and last chapters--the things which must SHORTLY take place; the time is NEAR! Therefore, whatever the drying up of the River Euphrates was, it happened in that time frame--the first century, A. D. 70!
Notice that there are "kings from the east." The River Euphrates would have been impossible to cross especially if it were full and overrunning! These kings from the east needed to cross in order to join the Roman forces against Israel. God said that He would bring all nations against Israel (Zech. 14:1-5). It is estimated that nearly 40,000 troops came from both the north and the east to aid Vespasian and Titus in the assault on Israel!
This drying up of the Euphrates is similar to that in the overthrow of OT Babylon by the armies of Cyrus. He diverted the river which permitted the armies to enter the city and the city fell! Since Jerusalem is Babylon in the Revelation, the drying up of the Euphrates is an allusion to the overthrow of THAT pre-A.D. 70 city. Remember also that God parted the Red Sea and dried up the Jordan River. Where is the extra-biblical commentary on these things? Why should we be so surprised that another similar event would not find its way into the pages of our history books?
Notice also that it is God Himself through His angels who dries up the river and thus assisting the ROMANS in their siege. Whether this drying up of the Euphrates is symbolic or actual, the fact remains that it occurred in the time frame of those things that were THEN to SHORTLY take place. If you want to be so literal, did an angel literally pour out a BOWL on the great River Euphrates? Are you expecting such an actual event?
The battle of Armageddon was God's battle. These were the days of vengeance against apostate Israel culminating in the destruction of the temple and city in A.D. 70. (Luke 21).
You will NEVER understand the Book of Revelation unless and until you put it in its CLEAR time frame--the time which was in JOHN's DAY to SHORTLY take place!
1. Megiddo was an ancient city located near a key mountain pass in Israel. It now lies in ruins. It is believed that the word "Armageddon" derives from the Hebrew words which mean "mountain of Megiddo."
2. Because of its strategic location many, many battles have been fought there.
3. The mountain of Megiddo (Mt. Carmel) is also the place where Elijah had his showdown with the priests of Baal.
4. Revelation, like the rest of Scripture, often speaks of the end time attacks against the church. The great battles in Revelation are not military actions against the political nation of Israel but against God's church, his new Jerusalem. This imagery of battle is a symbolic way of describing all attacks against God's people. Because Megiddo was a very famous battlefield, John uses it as a name for the last great battle against God's people, just as he uses Babylon as a name for the great enemy of the New Testament church, the Antichrist.
And how did this happen in those things that were to in John's day SHORTLY take place? The Book of Revelation is the carrying out of God's woes against that first-century apostate Israel (Matthew 23). Jerusalem is Babylon! The Antichrist is NOT in the Book of Revelation! The enemies of the NT church was none other than Rome and the Jews!
Preterist
Last edited by Preterist; 07-03-2008 at 09:43 AM..
I asked a specific question. When did the River Euphrates dry up? You said: And I quote you, " If it's in the book of Revelation, it is a past event!" (end quote)
Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up (REV. Chapter 16 Versus 12-16)
Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of kings from the east might be prepared.
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he that who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they his see shame."
And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
This is the Revelation of John.
The River Euphrates Today:
Is approx. 2,780 kilometers (1,730 miles long). It is formed by the union of two branches, the Kara (the western Euphrates), which rises in the Armenian highlands of today's eastern Turkey north of Erzurum and the Murat (the eastern Euphrates), which issues from an area southwest of Mount Ararat, north of Lake Van, The upper reaches of the Euphrates flows through steep canyons and gorges, southeast across Syria, and through Iraq. The Khabur and the Balikh River joins the Euphrates in eastern Syria.
When did this Great river Euphrates dry up? There is an effort that is now taking place to dam the river, but to God be the Glory, all in His timing. Now this is truth! Truth according to the sound, biblical Words of God.
Your sister in Christ Jesus.
Yes, all in His timing! John was shown the things that were then to SHORTLY take place because the time was THEN near!
Helloooo!!!!! When did the Great River Euphrates dry up? Anybody. You know why you can't answer this question? Because it hasn't happened YET.
Therefore, I charge you to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, according to the Words of God. The Words of God is meant to be believed in it's entirety. We don't get to pick and choose what parts we are going to honor, and what parts we are going to ignore.
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,'
says the Lord.
"For as the heavens are higher than
earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
"For as the rain comes down,
And the snow from heaven,
And do not return here,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower,
And bread to the eater,
So shall My word be that goes forth
from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for
which I sent it." (Isaiah 55 versus 8-11)
Believe all of it! Warning: Deceptions of False Teachers
For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lust of the flesh, through licentiousness,
the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption;
for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
But it has happened to them according to true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, havingwashed, to her wallowing in the mire."
Please, return to the truth, the holy words of our Lord Jesus Christ before it's to late. It is my duty as sister in Christ Jesus to tell you that the doctrine of preterism is false. I am not going to sit here a sugar coat anything so that feelings don't get hurt. That's not me. I am boldly telling you Christ is coming again and all eyes shall behold Him, every knee shall bow, every tongue will confess that He is Lord of All!!
Your sister in Christ Jesus
And I am telling YOU to accept the "holy words of our Lord Jesus Christ."
"THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Mat.24:34).
"YOU [the Twelve] will not finish going through the cities of ISRAEL before the Son of Man COMES!" (Mat. 10:23).
"There are some standing HERE who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom" (Mat. 16:28).
"Hereafter, YOU [Caiaphas and the rulers] will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the clouds of heaven" (Mat. 26:64).
Betsey lane, will YOU accept the "holy words of our Lord Jesus Christ?"
It is my duty to tell YOU that futurism is false! YOU make Christ out to be a liar and a false prophet since He promised things He never accomplished. YOU make the inspired writers out to be deceivers and false teachers, since what they proclaimed was to take place shortly because the time was in their day AT HAND, never took place! YOU make the Bible a book full of errors since it proclaims events to be near when, in fact, they were thousands of years away! YOU make Christianity a false religion in the eyes of a world of skeptics and atheists who understand better than you what Jesus and His disciples were saying.
YOU are the one ignoring the parts you don't like--the clear time words and statements that don't fit your preconceived ideas.
What did Jesus mean, Betsey Lane, when He looked right at Caiaphas and said: YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN? Could He have made it any plainer?
And again, Betsey Lane--be VERY careful how you use God's Word against others lest YOU yourself be found guilty of those very same things!
Rev 1:1 A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must ... eventually come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John,
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come ... eventually. Blessed is he who keeps the Words of the prophecy of this Book.
Rev 22:8 And I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel showing me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then he said to me, Behold! See, do not do it! For I am your fellow-servant, and of your brothers the prophets, and of those who keep the Words of this Book. Do worship to God.
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, Do not seal the Words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time ... sometime in the distant future.
Rev 1:1 A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must ... eventually come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John,
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come ... eventually. Blessed is he who keeps the Words of the prophecy of this Book.
Rev 22:8 And I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel showing me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then he said to me, Behold! See, do not do it! For I am your fellow-servant, and of your brothers the prophets, and of those who keep the Words of this Book. Do worship to God.
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, Do not seal the Words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time ... sometime in the distant future.
Just modifying the texts to conform to a "futurist" POV
Blessings
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
