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I really hope you can see the dilemma which arises in what you're saying here.
Under this scenario the best thing that could happen to mankind is for all references to Jesus to be done away with and all who would share the 'good news' to die or be silenced
Another point I'd like to bring up is: if I believed in free-will and eternal torment I would never ever have fathered children. I mean even if there was a .000001 % chance they could suffer for eternity, I would never take that chance. But the catch is that I am commanded by God (through Adam) to multiply and fill the earth.
What a terrible thing for God to command if ET doctrine were true (it's not).
blessings,
- Byron
Ultimately, it is going to come down to what you believe in. You said don't believe in eternal torment or free-will so it would be only natural that are interpretations of the texts would vary as well. I do see that this is a major dilemma because it would be simply easier to remove Jesus all together and have everyone saved by grace, but then again we would be dishonoring Jesus and not giving the people a chance to accept His life altering love. Who are we to censor and limit the One who gave us back our lives? I really can't discuss the universal and exclusive problem on this thread, but I'll probably start another later to address that one. Hope to see you on it.
Trust me, I have no wish to be God; I wouldn't want the job, (I don't work well under stress). Not to mention that I find it highly agreeable that since I don't believe in hell, I don't have to worry about who God should, or will, consign to it. It always amuses me when traditional Christians accuse me, and others like me, that we wish to be God, when, in fact, the same could be said for them. After all, they are the ones who insist that God, not only is going to, but that he must, fry the majority of his creation. Most of them don't even give him the credit of doing so in a relatively short time, (even Hitler had his time limits), but instead believe that he'll just sit back for all eternity, apparently playing with the burners, to get those flames going higher, for those foolish people who weren't smart enough, or in the right place at the right time, in order to accept Jesus, while they were living their short, mortal, finite lives, here on earth.
I don't think that it is outside of reason to expect God to act toward us in the same fashion that he expects us to act toward one another, (you know, that love and forgiveness thing?). If that offends some folks, (which it seems to, for some peculiar reason), so be it, but I will not believe in a God of such hellish wrath as others choose to do. This does not make me ungrateful, rather it makes me thankful that I can believe in a God who truly does love all of us.
I consider all that God has created every day. I am perfectly capable of seeing the stars, the sun, the moon, and understanding that he created them, and that without him these, and everything else, would not exist. However, understanding this has nothing to do with the fact I don't believe in eternal hell, nor should I have to, regardless of other folks' opinions.
So basically, you pick and choose which parts of God's Holy Words you want to? And just skim through the rest? I ask this question not as a universalist, nor futurist, nor whatever. I am asking because the BIBLE speaks about the wrath of God. Just curious.
So basically, you pick and choose which parts of God's Holy Words you want to? And just skim through the rest? I ask this question not as a universalist, nor futurist, nor whatever. I am asking because the BIBLE speaks about the wrath of God. Just curious.
The wrath of God is a good thing - when His judgements are in the earth everything is made right. The oppressors are cast down and the oppressed are set free. If you look at virtually all the Gahenna or eternal fire passages in the gospels they are works based - not faith based. Those who have done evil vs. those who have done good (resurrection of damnation vs. resurrection of life) calling your brother a fool, being rich while others are poor and ill, not visiting the 'least of these my brethren' (sheep and goats) the list goes on and on.
The problem with the evangelical version is it takes any mention of damnation (judgement) and slaps the "H" word on it and you have a neat little package.
Jesus (the express image of God) showed the heart of God for the common lost masses. He wasn't angry!!! Virtually 100 percent of His harsh words and actions were reserved for the religiously exclusive or those who profited from religion (temple clearing). God is wrathful against oppression and those who lack mercy (it's a sowing reaping thing) and that goes for 'believers' and 'unbelievers' alike.
"God's holy words" (as you state it) have been mis-applied and twisted beyond recognition by man's tradition and interpretation as evidenced by the long list of 'hell' passages which were debunked earlier in this thread.
I do have one question; if everyone will be saved in the end because there is no sin too great for God to not forgive, then why did Jesus make reference to what would be called the unpardonable sin. The one supposed sin, blaspheming against the Spirit, that God would not forgive. If their is even one sin that God Himself can't forgive then where do those who commit the crime go when they die. Not even the Lamb's blood can cover it so how can they be made "as white as snow" the day they stand before Jesus.
I do have one question; if everyone will be saved in the end because there is no sin too great for God to not forgive, then why did Jesus make reference to what would be called the unpardonable sin. The one supposed sin, blaspheming against the Spirit, that God would not forgive. If their is even one sin that God Himself can't forgive then where do those who commit the crime go when they die. Not even the Lamb's blood can cover it so how can they be made "as white as snow" the day they stand before Jesus.
I do not believe everyone will be saved in the end. I believe the unpardonable sin is rejecting Jesus as Savior and those who do, will spend eternity separated from Him in hell.
I do have one question; if everyone will be saved in the end because there is no sin too great for God to not forgive, then why did Jesus make reference to what would be called the unpardonable sin. The one supposed sin, blaspheming against the Spirit, that God would not forgive. If their is even one sin that God Himself can't forgive then where do those who commit the crime go when they die. Not even the Lamb's blood can cover it so how can they be made "as white as snow" the day they stand before Jesus.
I'll quote myself from another thread:
Throughout scripture there is no such thing as an unpardonable sin ie: Ps 103:2 "Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits: 3 Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases, 4 Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies"
Just another example how it is human nature to take one verse and assume the worst because of bad translating, even if it contradicts the rest of scripture.
28: Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: (King James Version)
Now, THAT sounds familiar, doesn't it? How about:
28: Verily, I say unto you All things shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, the sins and the profanities wherewithal they shall profane;
29: But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding, but is guilty of an age-abiding sin: (Rotherham)
What??? Who said that?
So,,, could it be that the unforgiveness spoken of will only last for a two distinct time periods — this age and the age to come?
Why is Christiandom so quick to embrace 'unpardonable sin' doctrine based on one passage? Especially when we are taught in many many places to ALWAYS forgive? Does God have lower standards for Himself?
The tragedy here is that through the ages Satan has tormented many a mind with this concept that they may have committed a sin which cannot be repented of/forgiven. If this were were true then John should have said "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world - except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"
And "Who is the propitiation not only for our sins - except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but also for the sins of the whole world - except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit".
And "God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all - all iniquity except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that is"
And "By His stripes we are healed - unless we have blasphemed the Holy Spirit"
blessings,
- Byron
PS: The word “aion†is used in the Greek text of the 'hath never forgiveness" passage, but is left out by the King James translators altogether. Was this a simple error, or did they understand that the word “aion†would put a limit on this unforgiveness, which would contradict their belief in never-ending punishment? This verse could/should be translated, “….hath no forgiveness unto times age-abiding†(Young's Literal Translation).
So basically, you pick and choose which parts of God's Holy Words you want to? And just skim through the rest? I ask this question not as a universalist, nor futurist, nor whatever. I am asking because the BIBLE speaks about the wrath of God. Just curious.
Well, if I am picking and choosing, I'd say I was in good company, because fundamentalists do the same, (I know, I used to be one). The difference is I now choose to believe that God really is Love. That he's about real hope, and truly Good News, for all, and that he treats us in the same manner that he expects us to treat others.
Peculiar that we condemn someone like Hitler for his horrid, tortuous actions, yet we have no problem that God will do the same thing, with one added, and very big difference, that it will be for eternity. And, our excuse for God's supposed behavior is that he is God, therefore he can do what he wants. I'm a mother, and a grandmother, and I have no problem with an occasional spanking, (corrective/redemptive), if the behavior calls for it. However, it certainly would not be accepted if I tortured my children or grandchildren, and my defense was that I am their mother/grandmother, (i.e. a position of power), therefore I can do these things. It appears that many people don't see the correlation between the two, (I'll admit, once upon a time, I didn't either), and they have no problem with putting God into the position of something akin to the Grand Inquisitioner. If that works for them, well, so be it. But, that horse already left the barn, for me, and I have no intention of catching it back up.
Well, if I am picking and choosing, I'd say I was in good company, because fundamentalists do the same, (I know, I used to be one). The difference is I now choose to believe that God really is Love. That he's about real hope, and truly Good News, for all, and that he treats us in the same manner that he expects us to treat others.
Peculiar that we condemn someone like Hitler for his horrid, tortuous actions, yet we have no problem that God will do the same thing, with one added, and very big difference, that it will be for eternity. And, our excuse for God's supposed behavior is that he is God, therefore he can do what he wants. I'm a mother, and a grandmother, and I have no problem with an occasional spanking, (corrective/redemptive), if the behavior calls for it. However, it certainly would not be accepted if I tortured my children or grandchildren, and my defense was that I am their mother/grandmother, (i.e. a position of power), therefore I can do these things. It appears that many people don't see the correlation between the two, (I'll admit, once upon a time, I didn't either), and they have no problem with putting God into the position of something akin to the Grand Inquisitioner. If that works for them, well, so be it. But, that horse already left the barn, for me, and I have no intention of catching it back up.
I'm not sure what category I would fall under fundamentalist or not, but I do believe that God has the right to read each of our hearts and determine if we are righteous in His eyes.
I don't believe there is a place of eternal hellfire and torment for the unrighteous. That would not be loving. But if someone does not have the heart condition to be righteous, then for the sake of the righteous I see no problem with God decided to cut them off from existence. I think God is being loving by providing this opportunity to all...we all have the opportunity to correct our behavior and change our lives. How unfair and unloving to the righteous to allow the wicked to continue to exist and cause turmoil.
You know, I am amazed to how so many people, Christians and non-believers alike assume the Bible to either be a work of fiction and/or take bits and pieces to their liking and discard the rest. Some base their conclusions on what others tell them without actually going to the source for themselves. Why is it some people are so easily led?
Could it be that the truth convicts them and even condemn their sinful lifestyles? Truth hurts sometimes. The Gospel of Jesus isn't just a "feel good" all of the time religion. That's what the Word of God was designed to do. Make us see ourselves as we are and make the appropriate changes that are necessary so that when we meet our Maker we would be able to stand in His presence.
Sinful man would rather live in darkness and continue to go about their sinful lives than believe the truth of God's word and leave their sin behind. As such, they will accept the word of their fellow man over that of the one and only true God, Jesus Christ.
You know, the Bible is very clear as to what hell is. It's a place where we do not want to find ourselves. Whether for a short period of time or not, it wasn't meant to be enjoyed. Someone mentioned that hell to them is the present sufferings of this world. Even if you believed that, why would you want to continue to suffer? And for the sake of conversation, (and I do hold to this belief; eternity that is ) who would want to continue in "their current state" of suffering for eternity?
Daniel 12 reads (and please get your Bible and read it for yourselves in it's entirety): At that time Micheal shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as there never was
since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Everyone who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness; like the stars forever and ever.
Not to shame for a little while or contempt for a little while then you get out of "time out". No, the Bible is very clear on what it means. To shame and contempt everlasting. Jesus said it; and I believe that He means it! Jesus is not feel good religion! Let's only apply what makes us feel good and to H--L with the rest. No! Jesus is a R-E-L-A-T-I-O-N-S-H-I-P that
needs to be worked on everyday. He wasn't meant to be mocked. He's God!
Your sister in Christ Jesus
Last edited by Betsey Lane; 08-13-2008 at 11:06 AM..
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).
(I know, I used to be one
). The difference is I now choose to believe that God really is Love. That he's about real hope, and truly Good News, for all, and that he treats us in the same manner that he expects us to treat others. 
