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What's wrong with it? That's why I asked earlier how people delineate the difference between good and bad magic. Harry Potter uses witchcraft (apparently this is bad magic) but watching The Wizard of Oz has nothing wrong with it? Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't The Wizard of Oz dwell with witchcraft? I seem to remember a good witch and a bad witch in that movie as well as the book. Why aren't people censoring their children from watching The Wizard of Oz?
I tried to make this point in an earlier thread, would hope you would see why I as a Christian deliniate with my children on much of what they see and hear in today's culture.
Supernatural powers, when not attributed to the God of the bible, has its root in another source. Any other source for 'good' outside of God himself is evil. Satan appears as an angel of light. Ever thought why the forbidden tree in the garden of Eden was called the knowledge of good and evil?
Now I have no problem relating the good vs. evil fight in a movie if it does not relate directly to a Christian viewpoint by saying "that was a great picture of the power the Christian possesses in Jesus to overcome the power of evil" or some other discussion to bring it back to our faith view.
I would make this point about Star Wars, Wizard of Oz or any fantasy movie that not only uses supernatural powers, but has a message of good vs. evil --- that the only way to overcome evil with good is to rely on the one who alone is good.
Regardless, I totally agree with you. I have no clue why atheists are here, but I chose to say nothing. They live in a world where it is accepted, even funny to hear children swearing and using God's name in vain yet they can tell Christians that we are wrong for not allowing our children to read Harry Potter books.
I am glad you spoke up.
I'm not saying you're wrong for not allowing it. I typically try not to label or judge people with a broad brushstroke just because I disagree with something unlike the completely unfair statement you have made.
Regardless, I get the impression from a lot of Christians that they would like me to be a part of their spiritual world. That by showing me the way and the light of Christ that I might somehow become a believer in Christ and your God. While the chances of that are probably slim to none with none holding a firm lead, it is because of this type of atmosphere that I am often left frustrated.
You know, it actually has less to do this time with the fact that I was labeled as someone who finds child swearing funny - because I don't - but that doesn't really matter. The problem with Christianity and even trying to feel a remote semblance for warmth towards the God you believe in are the ridiculous and petty things that are often associated with it such as whether or not children should read books about witchcraft. Personally, if you're going to sit here and tell me that if I were to convert to Christianity after becoming a parent and that I would make a bad Christian parent because I allow them to read Harry Potter than I don't think you really do realize the damage that you do to how I look at your beliefs and your God.
In all honesty, you're going to sit here and tell me that I should not only believe in this but that I should also hold a particular amount of reverence and love for a God who is going to not only judge my character but also my parenting skills based on a freaking Harry Potter book?! And that's where I feel like I often cross the line into utter stupidity and ridiculousness and that's often when I feel the tones of mockery welling up inside of me.
Because if you actually expect me to sit here and believe that there is a conscious force above and beyond all of 'this' and that he's monitoring every moment of my life - particularly in regards to a children's book - than I'm once again left standing here scratching my head as to why I would want any part of it.
Regardless, I totally agree with you. I have no clue why atheists are here, but I chose to say nothing. They live in a world where it is accepted, even funny to hear children swearing and using God's name in vain yet they can tell Christians that we are wrong for not allowing our children to read Harry Potter books.
I am glad you spoke up.
I come here because I like to see what new, crazy idea you've come up with. I get a laugh out of my daughter saying cuss words. I let her know that, while I don't care, some people out in the world have a problem when certain sounds are combined. There is no difference, as far as I'm concerned, when someone says darn it or damn it. Same meaning, only different sounds. You are all free to do whatever you want with your kids. We are here to discuss so don't expect everyone to agree with you. If you say something silly I'm going to let you know; like when you say Harry Potter is bad and the genocide and infanticide in the Bible is good.
I'm not saying you're wrong for not allowing it. Because if you actually expect me to sit here and believe that there is a conscious force above and beyond all of 'this' and that he's monitoring every moment of my life - particularly in regards to a children's book - than I'm once again left standing here scratching my head as to why I would want any part of it.
Trying to think of a good metaphor: Try this one. You like a girl and are all enthralled and everything looks perfect and rosy, you marry, become part of the family. Then you as a part of the family now have an inner seat at things to do with the inlaws that you didn't necessarily bargain for, the crazy aunt, the nosy brother in law, the nephew on drugs, the cousin that took everyone's money in a lousy business scheme....
Everything looked good and nice until you got involved and had a place at the table. It wasn't necessarily what you bargained for, don't care for some of it at all, but you still love the girl. And if the love for the girl is great enough, you gladly take all the other stuff that come with the package.
The search for God has to boil down to this kind of love and commitment and attraction. There are some loony ones in the family. But do you love him that much? Are you going to let the relatives keep you from the one you truly love? Who is your focus, the one you love or the others in the family?
I will make a bold statement, GCSTroop. I believe you come to this site because God himself is drawing you to him. You are hiding behind a "I'm just gonna go see what idiotic things those crazy Christians are talking about now" veil, but God is drawing you, wooing you.
You are going to either reject this love or embrace it. When and if you embrace it, you can let go of the goofs like me and reformed liberal and others that are the extended family and our little internal disagreements and arguments about Harry Potter et al that have absolutely NOTHING to do with your life and your response to your creator that loves you. We can be the criminal cousin and or the loony aunt. You can put up with us at Thanksgiving dinner or whenever we have to be nice to one another. But you can have the most fantastic relationship with the one who loves you more than you know love can be about.
Please don't miss the greatest adventure you can ever live because of my flaws, don't be so small as to let that be the excuse that keeps you from a life lived in partnership with the magnificent creator of all things.
Please don't miss the greatest adventure you can ever live because of my flaws, don't be so small as to let that be the excuse that keeps you from a life lived in partnership with the magnificent creator of all things.
It's not that, Saintmarks. It's the entire package that I'm not fond of up to and including the girl. I think you're mistaking the fact that the girl in your metaphor represents God in that I like the idea of the girl just not the quirky family members that come with it. But, the fact is, I don't like the idea of God to begin with. I don't like the fact that I would have to believe I am being watched by an omnipotent security camera that is weighing, judging, and balancing all of my flaws in some sort of register and is going to decide upon my eternal fate after my death. I don't like that idea. I don't like Big Brother. I don't like being controlled at all. Yet, that only explains why I would not like the idea of God and not necessarily why I think one does not exist.
My point in my previous post was that I think if I were to actually actively seek and look for God that I would first have to admire and think wonderfully of the idea to begin with. I would actually have to commit myself to believing that the notion of God, this "girl" in your metaphor, is something I'd be quite content with having in my life. Because, right now, I don't think God is a wonderful thing. I personally feel it's a horrid, wretched thing for me. And that's for me. I don't like the idea of it at all.
To further put burden and dislike into my mind are these crazy notions that if I were to seek this God out that I'd have to start thinking along the lines of whether or not a book like Harry Potter was acceptable?! But it goes even further beyond that as well and I would not make a very good Christian either. I firmly understand and accept that evolution in the Darwinian sense is how man has come to be. I understand and accept that homosexuality is something people are born with and not being put on trial for and I am also an advocate that those who are homosexual should marry. I understand and accept people who get abortions and I will not tell them they should not.
Yet, it's the Christians in this world who seem to want me to not only change my perceptions on whether or not their specific God exists but also that I should change my perceptions on things such as homosexuality, abortion, evolution, and a myriad of other topics up to and including Harry Potter. And, I'm sorry, if you're trying to attract me in any way whatsoever to this omnipresent Big Brother by telling me that I would not be allowed to read my children a Harry Potter book than you've lost me altogether and pushed me further away.
Let me reiterate. At the current moment in time - I do not like the idea of any God watching over me and jotting down in his little black book all of the good and bad in my life up to and including Harry Potter books. If you're really trying to persuade me that this "girl and her family" are something worth taking a leap of faith on than you're going to have to convince me first of all that she's even worth taking a second look at as I pass by her on the street. And so far people have done nothing but insist (as is evidenced by the numerous threads on this Christianity board) that not only will I have to change my steadfast notions that belief without evidence is a dangerous thing but as a result I will also have to change a plethora of moral values that I find important to society as well as myself. And that is what many Christians don't seem to understand.
If you're trying to lure me into "your realm" your first going to have to convince me that God is a good thing and you're going to have to do so by showing me that this is a God willing to overlook things like Harry Potter books, abortion, gay marriage, and that evil thing called evolution that is so widely misunderstood by the Christian Community.
The Harry Potter books have encouraged more children to read today than the bible has.
In this world of computers & electronic toys I would say that that would be a good thing
I personally think that It's wrong to Indoctrinate young children Into a religion that they are not old enough to understand, If they were able to understand It, you would'nt have to censor their reading material would you.
It's not that, Saintmarks. It's the entire package that I'm not fond of up to and including the girl. I think you're mistaking the fact that the girl in your metaphor represents God in that I like the idea of the girl just not the quirky family members that come with it. But, the fact is, I don't like the idea of God to begin with. I don't like the fact that I would have to believe I am being watched by an omnipotent security camera that is weighing, judging, and balancing all of my flaws in some sort of register and is going to decide upon my eternal fate after my death. I don't like that idea. I don't like Big Brother. I don't like being controlled at all. Yet, that only explains why I would not like the idea of God and not necessarily why I think one does not exist.
GCSTroop,
Gotta run to work and then out of town for a couple of days so don't have time right now to adequately put my thoughts on the page.
But please know that there is a wide variety of opinions on the "peripherals" of the faith within the faith. I have close brothers in the faith that are very sincere but at the same time are similar in viewpoints to yours about Harry Potter, homosexuality and evolution and others I am sure. That is why I bring out the family metaphor. I might disagree with them, might have a spirited debate with them on the various topics, but we are still family. An outsider looking in might say, oh gosh, that is dysfunction in function, but at the end of the debate, we will agree to disagree and move on but know we still love each other and are family.
I use the "girl" metaphor and while there is an aspect of God's relation with us that embodies some of this, the closer one is that of God the father and we his children. I am sure you have been implored by Christians to be "saved" or "born again." These terms have biblical roots but the best one is the adoption metaphor. Spiritually when you are born again, you are adopted into the family and God becomes your father. Jesus introduced us to this viewpoint of God as a father, the OT didn't paint God in this way.
As a father myself, I got a new appreciation for my heavenly father. The massive unconditional love that flooded me the first time I held my kids in the hospital and that has not only remained but grown is a beautiful picture of God's love for me. That mass of crying pooping feed me infancy could do NOTHING for me. It was on me to do everything for it. But I would have died right that moment and any moment since to protect that little life. Just a picture of God's love for me.
As a parent, there are times of discipline. From the child's viewpoint it can seem harsh and unreasonable. When the child becomes a parent himself, the light bulb goes on and understands and appreciates their own parents a little more. He tells him not to read Harry Potter (OK, just needed to stay on topic -- and a joke I hope you recognize).
This picture you have of God as big brother jotting your good and bad in a black book has a tiny bit of truth to it, but it is one facet of God in that he is a God of Judgement and Justice. But that is one side of Him. Yes, we should fear for our very lives the penalty of rebellion toward Him. But at the same time, a father deals with a rebellious child not to ban him but to correct him from what could and will harm him. It is done out of love.
However, at the end of this life, if at the end of all his wooing and chasing you and blessing you with all the good things that you have in your life and you don't respond, then, yes that is all God ends up being to you. A Judge. But he is much more than that for those who respond to his call, he is that lover I mention, he is the perfect caring father, he is a brother that never leaves you, he is the counselor that understands you better than you know yourself, he is the friend that lays down his own life to save yours.
GCSTroop, I don't know you except from this thread. You are very intelligent, you express your thoughts as well as anyone I have read here. I can tell you are a genuine, open, honest person even though I haven't met you personally. But I do know God is pursuing you. Just try this. Put all that you think you know about Christianity aside, all the peripherals aside. Forget all the things that you might have to change or not. Just simply ask a God that you aren't sure is even there and not sure you even like to make himself real to you. Nothing more. Don't have to go to a church, don't have to change anything. Don't have to burn your Harry Potter books. Just quiet your thoughts, sit still and ask him to let himself be known to you AS HE IS.
If he is a fiction of imagination, then what will that hurt? If he is nothing more than big brother waiting to whup your ass, then isn't it good to at least placate him once in a while?
But, if he really is the God that made all that we know, designed you inside and out, gave you the personality you have and the talents that you have and has a marvelous adventure for you here in this life as well as in the life that comes after this one, and there is chance for you to get in on that, isn't it worth the risk to let go of your preconcieved notions and at least ask him to reveal himself to you?
Might be a couple of days before I am online again.
I'll make this as direct as I can as I am starting a new shift this week and will probably not be around for a few days as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
But please know that there is a wide variety of opinions on the "peripherals" of the faith within the faith. I have close brothers in the faith that are very sincere but at the same time are similar in viewpoints to yours about Harry Potter, homosexuality and evolution and others I am sure. That is why I bring out the family metaphor. I might disagree with them, might have a spirited debate with them on the various topics, but we are still family. An outsider looking in might say, oh gosh, that is dysfunction in function, but at the end of the debate, we will agree to disagree and move on but know we still love each other and are family.
In other words, it sounds to me like you're telling me that it doesn't really matter what I believe as long as I believe in God, right? In other words, unlike every Christian I have met on this forum who has to seemingly go over their life with a fine-tooth comb to make sure they're a "Good Christian", I don't have to do that? I don't have to change a single viewpoint of mine other than that of not believing in God? Is that what you're telling me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
I use the "girl" metaphor and while there is an aspect of God's relation with us that embodies some of this, the closer one is that of God the father and we his children. I am sure you have been implored by Christians to be "saved" or "born again." These terms have biblical roots but the best one is the adoption metaphor. Spiritually when you are born again, you are adopted into the family and God becomes your father. Jesus introduced us to this viewpoint of God as a father, the OT didn't paint God in this way.
You're still not addressing why I would want to be "adopted", "born again", or "saved" in the first place. You keep talking to me as if I should view it as a good thing to not only believe in God, but a specific God, and that I also need to become part of some sort of inner circle within that specific God's realm and yet you're failing to capture my attention as to why I should even be remotely interested in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
As a father myself, I got a new appreciation for my heavenly father. The massive unconditional love that flooded me the first time I held my kids in the hospital and that has not only remained but grown is a beautiful picture of God's love for me. That mass of crying pooping feed me infancy could do NOTHING for me. It was on me to do everything for it. But I would have died right that moment and any moment since to protect that little life. Just a picture of God's love for me.
But how do I know that God's love is real outside of a 2000 year old book that is behind some of the greatest atrocities of all mankind? How can you prove to me that not only is God's love real but that love is specifically that of your specific God and not another God such as Zeus, Thor, Allah, Amman, or Baal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
As a parent, there are times of discipline. From the child's viewpoint it can seem harsh and unreasonable. When the child becomes a parent himself, the light bulb goes on and understands and appreciates their own parents a little more. He tells him not to read Harry Potter (OK, just needed to stay on topic -- and a joke I hope you recognize).
Discipline for what? For my sins? What exactly are my sins? Because right now I am under the distinct impression that I can believe what I want to believe in terms of God's laws. Or in other words, I can hold onto my steadfast claims that evolution is real, homosexuality is perfectly fine, abortion is alright, Harry Potter Books are A-OK, and a myriad of other things such as alcohol, cigarettes, and plenty of temptings of the flesh (One good joke deserves another ). Yet, it's only within religion, only within faith, that there seems to be this impetuous need to try and live within the realm of strict adherence to black and white laws of absolutist values. If you know anything about me, you will understand that I hate absolutism in the sense that it does not make philosophical or justifiable sense. With that being said, what I find utterly disparaging, disgusting, and dishonorable about the notion of God is this inability for people to surmise the fact that perhaps this all-powerful being can be a little understanding of different situations. For example. My belief in evolution. If you honestly expect me to believe that one day I am going to have to answer to God for why I don't believe in "the talking snake theory" or the "dustman" theory than I'm sorry, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that anything of the sort ever happened.
In case you're not understanding what I'm getting at before I head to the next few paragraphs, I am more concerned with evidence than with faith. Because I think that in order for me to start believing in your God (whether I like or dislike the notion of him/her) that I'm first going to have to see some real evidence in that of something that is tangibly scientific and not a leap of faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
This picture you have of God as big brother jotting your good and bad in a black book has a tiny bit of truth to it, but it is one facet of God in that he is a God of Judgement and Justice. But that is one side of Him. Yes, we should fear for our very lives the penalty of rebellion toward Him. But at the same time, a father deals with a rebellious child not to ban him but to correct him from what could and will harm him. It is done out of love.
However, at the end of this life, if at the end of all his wooing and chasing you and blessing you with all the good things that you have in your life and you don't respond, then, yes that is all God ends up being to you. A Judge. But he is much more than that for those who respond to his call, he is that lover I mention, he is the perfect caring father, he is a brother that never leaves you, he is the counselor that understands you better than you know yourself, he is the friend that lays down his own life to save yours.
This has never made sense to me and I don't see how it will now but I will ask again at the peril of my own frustration and head banging upon my desk.
Let me get this straight:
There is a God who is sitting up in heaven jotting down all of the good and bad things that I have ever done in much the same fashion that Santa Claus is writing out a list of "Naughties and Nices". In fact, he is going to sit with his little black book upon the day of my death and he's going to start reading out all of the things in my life that regardless of whether or not I believe in him, how I believed in him, and how I viewed his "word" (this sounds eerily contradictory to my specific thoughts on homosexuality, abortion, and Harry Potter) and he is going to judge me. He is, in essence, going to size me up, he's going to tell me how wonderful or awful I was. He's going to read from this little black book and more than anything, more than anything at all, he's going to focus MORE on the bad things and things he should be judging me on than the good things. Because it seems to me that people are more concerned with the bad things, sins if you will, than the good things in this life. And after he reads off his little black book filled with tales of drunken debauchery, late night sex orgies, days at the vomitorium, and excessive masturbation habits, he's going to turn me around and say:
"GCSTroop! I loved you. I really loved you. I loved you so much but you turned your back on me one too many times and regardless of the fact that you believed, you did not believe according to how you were supposed to believe. And as a result, because I love you so much, I am going to banish you to this place of eternal fire, torment, agony, pain, suffering, and horrendous torture. But, understand this. As a father who loves his son, I am doing this because I love you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
GCSTroop, I don't know you except from this thread. You are very intelligent, you express your thoughts as well as anyone I have read here. I can tell you are a genuine, open, honest person even though I haven't met you personally. But I do know God is pursuing you. Just try this. Put all that you think you know about Christianity aside, all the peripherals aside. Forget all the things that you might have to change or not. Just simply ask a God that you aren't sure is even there and not sure you even like to make himself real to you. Nothing more. Don't have to go to a church, don't have to change anything. Don't have to burn your Harry Potter books. Just quiet your thoughts, sit still and ask him to let himself be known to you AS HE IS.
If he is a fiction of imagination, then what will that hurt? If he is nothing more than big brother waiting to whup your ass, then isn't it good to at least placate him once in a while?
I'd first like to state that I do find it somewhat amusing that Christians are under the impression that I have never attempted to seek or find their God as if I've never actually thought to myself to possibly ask a deity to show himself. I'm not saying that to sound like I felt you were being condescending and I'm not saying that to sound condescending but I get this distinct impression that people don't quite understand that I am more concerned with evidence of existence in a scientific manner (and what a great scientific test than asking to show one's self!) than I am with faith-based assumptions.
Nevertheless, there are a few questions I have to ask. My first question is this:
If a Muslim man prays to his God and he feels fulfilled with invigorating hope, fervor, joy, and happiness, it is my assumption that you feel it is the Christian Holy Spirit placating his heart and mind and leading him towards a oneness with Christ despite the fact that the prayer was to Allah. Now, that is an assumption, perhaps a grandiose one, but an assumption nonetheless.
Based on that assumption, I have two questions:
1. If I were to pray to a God in the same sense that the Muslim man prays to his and I were to feel "spiritually alive" how would I know that it was the Christian God and not another God? In much the same way that apparently the Muslim man is being touched by the Christian Holy Spirit despite the prayers to the wrong God, how would I know without being misled that it was the Christian God?
2. Don't you find it the least bit strange that people all over the world just so happen to be born into the "right" religion, with the "right" God, and the "right" responses to their prayers? This seems to suggest to me that while faith and spirituality are an important part of people's lives, it doesn't necessarily make them right or even remotely close to being right about the existence of their God or deity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
But, if he really is the God that made all that we know, designed you inside and out, gave you the personality you have and the talents that you have and has a marvelous adventure for you here in this life as well as in the life that comes after this one, and there is chance for you to get in on that, isn't it worth the risk to let go of your preconcieved notions and at least ask him to reveal himself to you?
I have a problem with the wording of this particular part of your post. In particular - "made", "designed", and "gave". Personally, I feel that there is absolutely no, and by no I mean zero, evidence that anything I see has been made, designed, or given to me. Although I don't suspect that you meant to, I actually almost find it insulting to think that I am not responsible for my talents in this life. It is almost derogatory to my overwhelmingly enormous ego that despite this "free will" I have been given, I am actually just a slave to the creation of this being who could have just as easily made me dumber than our current President. It honestly seems to take away all of the accomplishments I have made in my life in that I had no control, power, or actual "free will" but it was all part of some larger manifest destiny to show and guide my alleged spirit the workings of God. I don't like the idea and so, no, I don't think it's worth the risk to ask him to reveal himself to me.
On top of that, and to really address the point in about as finite a way as I possibly can I have to admit that I am often reminded of North Korea when I think of the Christian God. Not to sound overly insulting but I think there are some interesting parallels that I will leave you with from my perspective.
In North Korea, there is a dead man who is the leader of the country. His name is Kim Il Song and his son, Kim Jong Il, is actually more the "head of state" than the "dear leader". The term "dear leader" is actually reserved for the dead Song. In North Korea, the people hold a specific amount of reverence for everything that their dear leader has given them. From the meager and almost insulting rations of food, to the occassional UN health aides and packages that arrive, and to the overwhelmingly powerful armies that this awry dictatorship has given them. In every household, street corner, and available wall space lies a picture of both Il Song and Jong Il (not to sound too poetic) and if it weren't so downright scary and mind-numbing it is the very iconic picture of a complete religious state.
Il Song and Jong Il have songs written in their names and are worshipped like powerful deities. The people are infatuated with him.
Yet, those who express the slightest amount of disdain and skepticism towards the "Dear Leader" are often met with the cruelest and harshest of judgments. From spending the rest of one's life in an internment camp to being immediately punished for questioning either the authority and power of the leader I can only see a scary relationship in what I consider to be something of a "Cosmic North Korea".
If I am expected to live my life in a fashion in which I must worship, give praise and thanks to my "Dear Leader" and "Maker" for all of the things that have been given to me. If I am expected to sing songs, praise him in worship every Sunday, thank him for the food on my table, put the signs of his cross above my kitchen table, and yet not be allowed to question or remain skeptical of the authority, power, and existence of such a thing without fearing a series of repurcussions of agony and pain much worse than any North Korean gulag can bring to my imagination, than I fail to see how it is much different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
Might be a couple of days before I am online again.
I'm late to the party, so maybe the original posters will never see this, but I feel I should post anyway...
Fundamentalist wrote,
"The Bible clearly condemns all kinds of witchcraft, sorcery and spiritism (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)..."
but,
"...there are also good parts of the story like love, self sacrifice etc...."
so,
"...it is up to each Christian parent to discern for themselves if they should allow this type of thing (well-written novels celebrating witchcraft that woo our children's hearts) in their home..."
There's a really troubling story about 2 prophets in 1Kings 13. It reminds us that we listen to God no matter what other Christians tell us (or do!) because God holds us responsible for His word. The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. It's okay to call things evil if God calls them so-- in fact it's good and right to do so...
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). Yet, it's only within religion, only within faith, that there seems to be this impetuous need to try and live within the realm of strict adherence to black and white laws of absolutist values. If you know anything about me, you will understand that I hate absolutism in the sense that it does not make philosophical or justifiable sense. With that being said, what I find utterly disparaging, disgusting, and dishonorable about the notion of God is this inability for people to surmise the fact that perhaps this all-powerful being can be a little understanding of different situations. For example. My belief in evolution. If you honestly expect me to believe that one day I am going to have to answer to God for why I don't believe in "the talking snake theory" or the "dustman" theory than I'm sorry, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that anything of the sort ever happened. 
