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What about Lazarus and the rich man? Lazarus was carried straight to heaven by Angels.
I believe this is a parable and not a real description of what happens when we died. How can all who have died go straight to Abrahams's bosom and talk with him? Are they with him now and able to literally see and talk to people who many believe are literally burning alive in a never ending hell? Would one sip of water cool someone who would be there or all of eternity? If the Lazarus and the rich man were spirits in the spirit world, why would they have fingers, eyes, and a tongue? (Jesus showed Himself to His disciples and said that a spirit did not have flesh and bones like He did - Luke 24:39)
Acts 2:29
"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you, of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Acts 2:34
"For David is not ascended unto the heavens.."
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-05-2008 at 10:03 PM..
Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
The point of Abraham and Lazurus is not that we all will be in Abrahams bosom or see\talk to the damned. The point is that once dead, your eternal fate is immediately determined, heaven or hell. This notion that abounds that hell is not eternal, with agony and torment is a lie. Hell is described as "prision" in the Bible where you will have no ability whatsoever to escape from, nor get any kind of relief. Hell (aka hades, lake of fire ect) is very real, just as is heaven.
From whatever place you're in (heaven or hell), there you will remain until the world ends. Then the body will be reunited with the soul at the final judgment. You (body and soul) will either be in eternal bliss or in eternal torment.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Part of rejecting the Son, is to reject who he is, part of the triune God.
Last edited by twin.spin; 12-05-2008 at 10:31 PM..
13. But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
You asked, what are we doing until the Lord comes..............................we are either sleeping/resting in Christ Jesus, or we are doing what we are doing now, spreading the good news that He's soon coming, my friend. And we know that He is coming soon right?
About mommy, don't be sorry. I'm okay now. I still miss her terribly, but I would'nt want her back not even for a day, knowing she is resting in her Saviour. I'll see her again. That's the promise from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Ourhope. As long as you obey and repent and obey and repent on a daily basis, did I say obey and repent? (Smile) Obey Jesus. Repent daily. Do what He asked of you to do. Forget the Catholic and Pergotary. Follow Jesus till it's all said and done and you'll be fine. God's blessing to you too.
Yor sister in Christ Jesus
Betsey Lane,
Obey and repent...Amen.
Yes, I know he is coming soon. Moreso than you probably know. You see, I truely do have dreams that I in no way can deny are from God...no matter what anyone says.--for another thread, I know. No one can shake my faith as I pray daily that this does not happen.
I'm not "worried" about where those who have passed are...I just truely "wondered."
And also it makes many open their Bibles...which is what I love to do on a daily basis. Looks like you use the same Bible I do...
And I can feel the Holy Spirit at this very moment!
I am not a drunkard...I have the Holy Spirit! lol Isn't the feeling wonderful? I wish I could feel it all the time.
God Bless Betsey,DOTL,Fundamentalist,HotinAZ,beeveenh,Shana Brown, and all those who will post with the word of God. ... May God's Blessing come over all in the world as a matter of fact.
and thank you for your scriptures.
Sherry
Hi DOTL,
Good to see you "out" again. I seem to remember some of what you are saying. About the dead being reunited with their heavenly body..is that a scripture? If so, where. I read and read and READ the bible-yet there is always something I've missed.
I go to a Baptist church and have heard different things stated about this. I could have gone to church and asked this same question but something led me to ask it here. Besides, I am usually the quiet one in church--absorbing everthing that is being said. I rarely "speak up" and when I do I think almost everyone has a fainting feeling. lol....
Am I a "true" Baptist? I don't even know. All I know is I believe in The Word of God. Who truely knows even what the meaning of a "true Baptist" is? I know there are several different beliefs even within our church. I, personally, go to church for the Lord and myself. I enjoy the fellowship. You said it before--where there are two or more gathered....
God Bless,
Sherry
Hey Sherry, thank you. I'll have to get back to you about the scripture references, but honestly I don't think there will be any that specifically say this. It's all based on the events that take place, and a natural assumption that makes sense to most who believe in a pre-trib Rapture.
I really never was able to put it all together until about a year ago. I had many questions about it, especially the part where the dead in Christ will rise first. After knowing about Lazarus and the rich man and a few other Biblical characters who were "hinted at" going straight to heaven, it just didn't add up. Why does it say some go directly to heaven, but then this "the dead in Christ" rise first?
None of us know anything for certain, all we can do is speculate about this because it's of a spiritual nature and the Bible just does not tell us. But what makes the most sense to me, since I believe in a pre-trib rapture, is the flesh body/spiritual body are seperated at death. We are made from dust, and our flesh body returns to dust. It doesn't matter where our flesh body is buried or burned, it's all dust and God will reunite the two at the Rapture. If He created us from dust, then He can recreate us from dust to make us whole and recognizable.
This may sound too far out for some people, but the thing is we have to believe what seems reasonable to us about the details which aren't given to us in the bible. Example: I think Betsey's mother is in heaven right now, probably sleeping in her heavenly form. She met Jesus, and He rocked her to sleep. She will be gently awakened when it's time to put back on her physical form so that Betsey will be able to recognize her when they meet at the Rapture!!!
See, makes perfect sense!!!
Oooh, oooh, I just thought of a thread that was excellent in giving scriptures in favor of the Rapture...let me go see if I can find it, maybe that will help some.
Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
The point of Abraham and Lazurus is not that we all will be in Abrahams bosom or see\talk to the damned. The point is that once dead, your eternal fate is immediately determined, heaven or hell. This notion that abounds that hell is not eternal, with agony and torment is a lie. Hell is described as "prision" in the Bible where you will have no ability whatsoever to escape from, nor get any kind of relief. Hell (aka hades, lake of fire ect) is very real, just as is heaven.
From whatever place you're in (heaven or hell), there you will remain until the world ends. Then the body will be reunited with the soul at the final judgment. You (body and soul) will either be in eternal bliss or in eternal torment.
I disagree that the scriptures teach that hell is eternal. I believe that the scriptures teach that we are in Hades, the Unseen state, not heaven or eternal hell when we die.
"Sheol." is the Hebrew word in the OT. It occurs 65 times and is translated "hell" 31 times, "grave" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times in the KJV. "Sheol" means the same as the Greek noun "Hades."
Hades" comes from from the Greek verb "horao." "Horao" means "I am seeing." The Greeks then prefixed the word with "a" (alpha) which negates "to see" thus coming up with the noun "Hades" meaning "unseen." "Sheol" and "Hades" mean "unseen."
Jonah 2:2 "Out of the belly of hell (Sheol) cried I." Verse 1:17 tells us he was "in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights." Was Jonah in a literal hell or in the belly of a fish? If "Sheol" is translated "unseen" we have no problem. Jonah was in the "belly of the fish" and was "unseen." and he was in the belly for 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus was also in Hades, the unseen state, the grave, until He was resurrected.
If people are in eternal hell, why would they be taken out of eternal hell to be put back into eternal hell, and give glory to God, thanking Him? If people are in eternal heaven when they die why the need for the resurrection? The reason I shared the information about Lazarus and the rich man is because I wanted to point out that if this is what happens when we die, there contradictions/conflicts with other scriptures. For example, the dead are described as returning to the earth, their thoughts perishing (Psalm 146:4 ) instead of as drinking and talking. Take care and God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-05-2008 at 10:44 PM..
Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
The point of Abraham and Lazurus is not that we all will be in Abrahams bosom or see\talk to the damned. The point is that once dead, your eternal fate is immediately determined, heaven or hell. This notion that abounds that hell is not eternal, with agony and torment is a lie. Hell is described as "prision" in the Bible where you will have no ability whatsoever to escape from, nor get any kind of relief. Hell (aka hades, lake of fire ect) is very real, just as is heaven.
From whatever place you're in (heaven or hell), there you will remain until the world ends. Then the body will be reunited with the soul at the final judgment. You (body and soul) will either be in eternal bliss or in eternal torment.
Hey twineyspiney!!!
You and Shana may be right about the thing with Lazarus, maybe. None of us really know that for sure. But even though I don't think you are a pre-tribber, we are in agreement with your last paragraph, (and most of the first paragraph)
There's one thing we can all agree on, and that's Jesus Christ is the only way to get to heaven and to avoid hell.
I disagree that the scriptures teach that hell is eternal. I believe that the scriptures teach that we are in Hades, the Unseen state, not heaven or eternal hell when we die. If people are in eternal hell, why would they be taken out of eternal hell to be put back into eternal hell, and give glory to God, thanking Him? The reason I shared the information about Lazarus and the rich man is because I wanted to point out that if this is what happens when we die, there contradictions/conflicts with other scriptures. For example, the dead are described as returning to the earth, their thought perishing (Psalm 146:4) instead of as drinking and talking. Take care and God bless.
Well because many like me believe Hades is a holding place for the dead unbelievers such as the rich man. The rich man was dead so since we are alive we can't be in Hades. The unbelievers in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire.
There will be not one resurrection, but a series of resurrections, some to eternal life in heaven and some to eternal damnation in the final judgment.
(Daniel 12:2)
2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt"
(John 5:28–29)
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
Well because many like me believe Hades is a holding place for the dead unbelievers such as the rich man. The rich man was dead so since we are alive we can't be in Hades.
Fundamentalist, I agree that that Hades is a common place (but I don't believe that it is a literal place) so I would refer to it as a common state or condition of believers and unbelievers, death - the grave. But I don't believe that anyone is in eternal hell of torment or eternal heaven of bliss when they die. They are dead, I believe the scriptures to teach, until the resurrection, having no thoughts, no consciousness, no ability to speak or move about like some believe. Some people believe that people go immediately to eternal hell when they die, and are literally existing there, so why would they be taken out of an eternal hell to be put back into an eternal hell, thanking God, and giving glory to God.
Here are additional translations of the verses you shared:
Daniel 12:2
2`And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during (YLT)
John 5
28`Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment. (YLT)
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-05-2008 at 11:01 PM..
Fundamentalist, I agree that that Hades is a common place (but I don't believe that it is a literal place) so I would refer to it as a common state or condition of believers and unbelievers, death - the grave. But I don't believe that anyone is in eternal hell of torment or eternal heaven of bliss when they die. They are dead, I believe the scriptures to teach, until the resurrection, having no thoughts, no consciousness, no ability to speak or move about like some believe. Some people believe that people go immediately to eternal hell when they die, and are literally existing there, so why would they be taken out of an eternal hell to be put back into an eternal hell, thanking God, and giving glory to God. God bless.
Because they are not eternal but temporary holding places, same way that people in Paradise will go to heaven
I am confused, from the passages I sent. You believe God will wake the dead only to put them to sleep again?
Because they are not eternal but temporary holding places, same way that people in Paradise will go to heaven
But I am asking those people who do not believe that they are temporary holding places, who believe that they literally go to an eternal hell or eternal heaven when they die, why would God take them out and put them back in?
Quote:
I am confused, from the passages I sent. You believe God will wake the dead only to put them to sleep again
I am not trying to confuse you, Fundamentalist. I'm sorry. But I understand the resurrection in terms of the ages, that many will rise to age lasting life or to the life of the age or ages and others to age lasting condemnation/wrath/judgment or to the condemnation/wrath/judgment of the age or ages. Those who rise to the life of the age or ages will have eternal life because they will have immortality. The punishment/judgment experienced by others will be temporary because my belief is that God will reconcile them all to Himself eventually.( 1 Cor. 15)
just for reference so you can see my perspective:
LIfe of the ages (ages=eons=aions)
Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons (ages), and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been vivified, or made alive, IN CHRIST. There will then be no more death. Just as life is destroyed by death, so death is destroyed by life. Our present bodies are mortal and corruptible (1 Cor. 15:44-55), but when mankind is made alive IN CHRIST they will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (Gary Amirault) (caps from reference)
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-05-2008 at 11:24 PM..
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