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The other day as I went to the back of the store to check a vendor in, who happens to be a pastor..I could tell he was all beside himself, and on futher explanation I found out he was beside himself cause some fellow at a previous stop at made the comment that the wine was indeed wine and that it wasnt just grapejuice that Jesus turned water into..apparently it blew his whole day. i didnt offer any advice either way..Ive decided that my time is better spent not getting into debates that dont matter..wine?? grapejuice?? red carpet?? green carpet??? saturday worship sunday worshipno wonder people look at us like we have lost our marbles sometimes..we are supposed to be the salt of the earth and instead we get caught up in useless debates that hinder not only our walk with God but someone elses too.
Imagine im on a highway..I have a destination..and all along the way I take detours that I dont have to take...and instead of moving forward we are just like the Israelites wandering in the desert for 40 years..what if we dont have to be right? what if its okay not to know all the answers? what if i find after all this time Im still a man in need of a savior ( to still a line from DC TALK)?
what if...every denomination decided to drop their denomination and put Jesus as the denomination? what if...we all decided to praise God in unison, no matter how you praise him? what if pointing others to Jesus was our only objective? what if??? just some thoughts
**all thoughts are arguy1973s..feel free to speak freely
what if......we all decided to praise God in unison, no matter how you praise him? what if pointing others to Jesus was our only objective? what if??? just some thoughts
I think from an outside point of view I would most certainly have to agree with you. I know I can say this much:
When I was just a young little Troop of about five or six years old, I was told, like many children, about God and Jesus and all of the stories in the Bible. As any kid might, I had a ton of questions. What happens when you do this? What happens when you do that? What about this scenario? What about that scenario? In essence, I was very curious about this introduction to Christianity and I have to be honest that the more I asked the less sense it seemed to make to me. Even as a child of five or six years old, I could not fathom the complicated mess that people believed in.
By and large, I have always been and probably will be a rather simple person. As a kid, I had enough rules to govern me by. I had to do chores, homework and a variety of things to keep me busy and out of trouble. However, I always felt it to be so ridiculous that I had to watch what I did here and watch what I did there so as not to make this guy Jesus mad at me. Overall, I have to say that it was at that very young age that I can first remember mentally rolling my eyes at yet another "law" that I had to abide by.
I think that to this day one of the most amusing and yet frustrating things to me is just how nit-picky people seem to be when they throw their God around. As you talked about with the wine/grapejuice incident, I feel the same exact way every time I hear people talk about a vast majority of the things that encompass the Christian faith.
I got to thinking about it even further and I want to give you the impression that I, as well as probably many other non-believers have. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that every Christian on this forum is correct in their interpretation of what "sin" is and I want to put it in perspective of how it looks to someone like me. In other words, this is what you are telling me I have to believe is sinful and I have to avoid these things (things I consider nit-picky) if I were to ever become a full-fledged Christian:
No Dancing
No Alcohol
No Sex before marriage
No Sex during marriage with the strict exception of pro-creating
No Homosexuality
No Masturbation
No Cigarettes
No Harry Potter
No Ouija Boards
No Tarot Cards
No Psychics
No Pornography
No Eating Meat on Certain Days
No Wearing Certain Clothes
No Wearing Certain Clothes After a Certain Day
No "Yolking" with Non-Believers
No Cursing
No Science without the premise that God must be responsible
No Meals without Prayers First
No To Certain Music
No To Certain TV
No To Thanking God for Miniscule Stuff
No To Not Thanking God for Miniscule Stuff
No To Certain Technologies
No To Astrology
No To Obama
No To Anyone Against Obama
No To Abortion
No To Women Having Certain Rights
No To Women Not Having Certain Rights
No To Anyone Who is NOT a Republican
No To Anyone Who is NOT a Democrat
No To Catholics
No To Those Who Aren't Catholics
No To Condoms
No To Those Not Wearing Condoms
No To Working on the Sabbath
No To Muslims
No To Jews
No To Any Other Faith
No To Those Unaccepting of Other Faiths
No To Prostitution
No To Suicide
No To Rick Warren
No To Those Against Rick Warren
No To Images of Jesus On Toast
No To Those Who Say It Wasn't Jesus on Toast
No To Global Warming
No To Bill Maher
No To Richard Dawkins
No To Those NOT Inspired by Ben Stein
No To Celebrating Christmas because It's Pagan
No To NOT Celebrating Christmas because It's the birthday of Jesus
No To Halloween
No To The Golden Compass
No To Clown-Led Communions
No To Giving Away "Jesus Saves" Inscribed Shot Glasses
As you can see, these are only a handful of things I have seen come across the forum as things that a good Christian should or should not do. As you can also tell, many of these are very conflicting in their nature. So, forgive me if I sound a little confused but how on Earth is someone like me ever supposed to come remotely close to believing these are somehow God-given directives if every single one of them seems to be nothing more than human opinion?
I don't understand it either. When I became a Christian, I truly thought everyone (Christians) was as Jesus..... I was so excited about my new faith and for some one who grew up in a home where there was constant fighting, I was excited about the love I experienced through Him and that I now belong to a people who loved one another and there was no such thing as hate and arguing....it didn't take long to learn that not everyone thought that way, or even acted upon it either.
I still struggle with it.... constantly asking Jesus, why must there be division, strife, contention, among the people of God.
I have finally learned here don't post unless your ready for a good fight....cause someone is going to not like what you have posted, even if it is something as gentle or whatever, they will find something in it to disagree. It is a restless heart, not settled.
Their going to harp, provoke, and try to push every button one has! Truly my faith has been tested in this forum. And yes, several times I have walked away with my head hanging in shame of the way I have presented my Lord.
To me that is not a heart living in the peace that Jesus promises to give each and everyone of us....John 14:27.
I so agree with some of the things Troop says, don't do this or don't do that....this is a people living by rules not love.
I have learned since I met the Lord, it's not that one constantly going around checking the list in making sure their doing the right things or else... as many seem to make you think...one needs to do!
All God ask of us will you BELIEVE? And everything else will fall into place....Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you! (Matthew 6:33)
But I have seen in my life one begins to do the things of God without even thinking about them. It is who you are! When you are walking by love, one doesn't think or watching who is doing the right or wrong thing. Your heart is wondering why don't they believe Jesus? Why are they thinking or doing that. Don't they believe Him!
I believe that is what it all boils down too....Do you BELIEVE? Blessed are the poor in spirit. Someone who knows they are spiritually bankrupt, they need someone to lead and teach them. They don't have it all together and know everything, they see their need for God deeply.
My goodness, those who do know a lot of the history of the church or have been given insight, don't they realize that it was God who gave them that revelation, and wisdom freely....of the things of Him? And then they turn around and beat people up with it, for not knowing or misunderstanding!
It reminds me of Moses, it was his is pride! God gave Him the education, lips to speak to a people, giving him the ability to lead them out of captivity, and he became prideful of the things God taught and gave him..... that is what I see in this forum. People have been given great knowledge, but they beat their brethren up with it.... instead of loving them with it!
Who cares if the wine was real or not! It was the first miracle Jesus perform in His ministry..... it was His love, He showed. That the groom of the wedding would not be embarrassed. It was something beautiful He did, not proving... Hey, look at me I'm the Son of God... He saw the need and gave out of His love for the wedding host. And this is where I believe a lot of religious people are missing it!!
If I have all the knowledge and yet not loved.......
Merry Christmas.... do hope many will see the true meaning of Christmas... Faith, Hope and the greatest of these.. LOVE!!
Blessings to you and all! And I also thank you for listening to my rambling!!!
The gospel message is simple: believe and repent. (Growth comes afterwards.)
Jesus summed up the commandments with one word: LOVE.
Everything else is a distraction. Most of those distractions keep the Christian from growing in faith and knowledge, and it keeps the unbelievers from hearing the gospel message and seeing it displayed in the lives, words, and actions of God's children.
BIBLE = Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
The Bible is God's love letter to the people of the earth. When we let others tell us it's "truths" and "rules" rather than reading them for ourselves, we open ourselves up to all kinds of abuse and/or confusion. The best way to get to know anyone is to spend time with him/her. The best way to have the mind of Christ is to spend time with him in prayer and through his Word.
All Christians are at different stages in their lives, and their maturity in faith and knowledge will reflect the various stages. We have been given diverse gifts and interests so we can each function as a PART of the body and be prepared for the unique tasks God sets before us. The body is strengthened because of the diversity of it's parts and--to a large degree--diversity of thinking. Growth will be hindered if all the parts aren't properly fed or if they are constantly beaten.
The world would be awfully boring if everyone thought and acted exactly as I do. If it was limited to my knowledge and abilities, the world would fall apart in a heartbeat. I'm glad there are people who think and act differently from me. I don't always agree with them, and I'll stand firm in my convictions; however, I'm thankful for the diversity of strengths and opinions.
Time is too precious to engage in fruitless debates. Let's face it, some things can never be proven. Romans tells us that for various things, we need to be convinced in our own minds, and not to act in doubt. We are individuals, and we will naturally have different convictions regarding the "gray areas." Of course, our conviction should be a result of reading/studying the Bible for ourselves, followed by our own study, observations, and experiences in areas not clearly delineated in the Bible.
We are on dangerous ground when we let others do our thinking for us. I'm firmly convinced Christians should be students of the world--including it's history, science, arts, etc.--as well as the Bible. That way, we are better prepared "to give a reason for the hope that is within us." It will also enable us to more quickly discern truth when faced with lies and futile philosophies. And--just maybe--God will let us know that we're not always right. Will we be humble enough to admit it?
Wow arguy! You nailed it! I've been telling my hubby for years that I'd love to find a church that focused on Jesus and his teachings and totally threw out all of their "opinions" on what is sin and not sin. After being stuck in a UPC church for years I am sooooo sick of the legalism. You can't do this you can't do that....blah blah blah....And it is all based on the opinions of the guys on top! I know this becasue the opinion has changed. Years ago I remember that they wanted long sleves on everyone...then it changed to mid way to elbow, then to elbow, now short sleves are okay....blah blah blah.... What would Jesus say?! I can't say for sure, but I think that he would say "As long as you're not trying to attract unnecceassary attention to yourself, wear what you want."
Good thoughts. Satan is alive and well on earth and wants to get us off the path any way he can. You are right that we get side-tracked in meaningless areas that take us away from the path God wants us to take.
I stop and say to myself, will this matter in an hour, in a day, in a week. It just helps me to sort out what is really important....
The other day as I went to the back of the store to check a vendor in, who happens to be a pastor..I could tell he was all beside himself, and on futher explanation I found out he was beside himself cause some fellow at a previous stop at made the comment that the wine was indeed wine and that it wasnt just grapejuice that Jesus turned water into..apparently it blew his whole day. i didnt offer any advice either way..Ive decided that my time is better spent not getting into debates that dont matter..wine?? grapejuice?? red carpet?? green carpet??? saturday worship sunday worshipno wonder people look at us like we have lost our marbles sometimes.........
what if...every denomination decided to drop their denomination and put Jesus as the denomination? what if...we all decided to praise God in unison, no matter how you praise him? what if pointing others to Jesus was our only objective? what if??? just some thoughts
Don't put all your eggs in one basket.....
I understand where you are coming from but that's easier said than done. There will always be debates because the bible makes it so with verses like "If you don't have the Son then you don't have the Father" so which Jesus do we point people to?, Michael the arch angel, lucifer's brother, Son of God or God Himself? but that's OK, as long as we are civil about it, in fact I believe God knew and yet still allowed it for His own purpose. Personally I feel it grounds all of us. Keeps us on our "spiritual toes" so we don't get complacent always searching for the truth not to mention if we were "unison" and we had the wrong Jesus, then we will all go to hell.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-23-2008 at 07:22 AM..
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My own ramblings
What would Jesus say?! I can't say for sure, but I think that he would say "As long as you're not trying to attract unnecceassary attention to yourself, wear what you want."
