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I just want to tell an interesting story I heard on a radio theatre presentation of a story about hell.
The person who went to hell was a horse trainer and always bet on the horses. He was very creative and very physically active. I think he ended up cheating people with his profession and that is why he went to hell.
He was sentenanced to spend eternity chained to a chair adding up columns of numbers on an adding machine in a windowless office.
Looking at it from this person's point of view, that sure seems to me like hell.
Anything done over and again for all eternity would be maddening.Take your favorite song. Play it over and over again for ever and i promise your ears will start bleeding and your head would eventually simply explode! I don't think people even understand the implications of an eternal torture. There comes a point in time after suffering so much pain that the mind simply snaps. They wouldn't even know they were suffering after long enough. It really is the most heinous and ridiculous belief system to ever have surfaced from within the darkest depths of humanities depraved souls.
Anything done over and again for all eternity would be maddening.Take your favorite song. Play it over and over again for ever and i promise your ears will start bleeding and your head would eventually simply explode! I don't think people even understand the implications of an eternal torture. There comes a point in time after suffering so much pain that the mind simply snaps. They wouldn't even know they were suffering after long enough. It really is the most heinous and ridiculous belief system to ever have surfaced from within the darkest depths of humanities depraved souls.
Anything done over and again for all eternity would be maddening.Take your favorite song. Play it over and over again for ever and i promise your ears will start bleeding and your head would eventually simply explode! I don't think people even understand the implications of an eternal torture. There comes a point in time after suffering so much pain that the mind simply snaps. They wouldn't even know they were suffering after long enough. It really is the most heinous and ridiculous belief system to ever have surfaced from within the darkest depths of humanities depraved souls.
On the other hand, I am an accountant and have spent more than 41 years of my life adding up numbers in windowless offices. LOL What would be hell for me? Or have I paid my debt?
This is rhetorical Christianity that has little basis in what scripture actually has to say about everything. I understand the indoctrinated concepts and it has taken a long time to ween myself of these false Christian concepts and doctrines. Your understanding of scripture is typical fundamental traditional institutional Christianity. This is not the way the early church believed or understood the gospel to be. The only difference perhaps being that you don't believe in a literal hell after death, before the resurrection?
I am about as far away from your preconception of "typical fundamental traditional institutional Christianity" as can be. I have no indoctrinated concepts, as I became a Christian only from reading the Bible, and not by joining a church. So, I can honestly say that I have been indoctrinated by no one. Indeed, I did not even grow up in a religious home. And I still am not a member of any church.
I have read the OT over 50 times and the NT at least 300 times (I have read it once a month for over 25 years). I am confident that my views on the Bible are based on reading it and it alone. Otherwise, I would ask you to prove me wrong by quoting scripture, and only scripture.
I do believe in a literal hell after death. In accordance with what the Bible says about hell. But my understanding of hell is based on what the Bible says it is, in the original Hebrew/Greek.
What the "early church" believed is an unknowable concept. Chances are, it is represented by as many shades of variance as there were total members. It is impossible to know what each and every believer held; but if the NT is any measure of orthodoxy, than I believe I am orthodox.
Hi, it can't be eternal if death is to be abolished one day and if God will be all in all. Jesus is to fill all things from top to bottom, and if all are to be reunited in Jesus Christ, so it cannot be eternal. God bless.
The Bible says it is. Here is a relevant passage from Revelation 20, describing the second resurrection and the White Throne Judgement:
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
One can then say that the Bible contradicts itself, if one is working from a lack of understanding about the dual meanings of "death". But it is not possible to rightly say, from the Bible, that the second death is not eternal. Physical Death is abolished by throwing it into the Lake of Fire, as the Revelation describes. But the second death of the wicked is in the Lake of Fire. And it is clearly called "Eternal" in this passage; and in many others elsewhere.
The former meaning refers to the curse of physical death laid upon all of creation at the fall. "In that day, ye shall surely die." Physical death is not death in its fullest sense, since physical death does not eternally embrace everone. It has no victory over the saved, after all, who go to stand in the presence of God, not really dead at all. Physical Death is abolished, after the Great White Throne Judgement. As the last chapter of Revelations describes, the universe and all creation is made anew from the very elements. But the second death continues on, because "death" in its ultimate meaning, is seperation from God absolutely.
And again, I say, that since all creation will be made anew and sinless, than it stands to reason the Lake of Fire is located somewhere outside that creation, in a realm that we cannot understand.
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Hi this passage does not say the death is everlasting or eternal. The literal translation is that is for or to the ages of the ages. According to 1 Cor. 15, death is to be abolished. I believe that the lake of fire has a higher purpose leading to the eventual restoration of all to God. The scriptures say that He will make all things new, and nothing is excluded from this. Another passage which speaks to the promise of restoration of all is found in Romans 8: 18-21. . There is nothing in the scriptures which say that the lake of fire exists outside of the creation. God bless.
Rev. 20 10and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. 11And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; 12and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works; 13and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; 14and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; 15and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire (YLT)
I am about as far away from your preconception of "typical fundamental traditional institutional Christianity" as can be. I have no indoctrinated concepts, as I became a Christian only from reading the Bible, and not by joining a church. So, I can honestly say that I have been indoctrinated by no one. Indeed, I did not even grow up in a religious home. And I still am not a member of any church.
I have read the OT over 50 times and the NT at least 300 times (I have read it once a month for over 25 years). I am confident that my views on the Bible are based on reading it and it alone. Otherwise, I would ask you to prove me wrong by quoting scripture, and only scripture.
I do believe in a literal hell after death. In accordance with what the Bible says about hell. But my understanding of hell is based on what the Bible says it is, in the original Hebrew/Greek.
What the "early church" believed is an unknowable concept. Chances are, it is represented by as many shades of variance as there were total members. It is impossible to know what each and every believer held; but if the NT is any measure of orthodoxy, than I believe I am orthodox.
I find it hard to believe that your interpretation of scripture is not influenced by any sources extra-biblical. Nevertheless, any version of the bible from the inception of the KJV to now excepting a few literal translations are translated with a political and religious slant. There are four words translated into hell in many contemporary translations of the bible. Sheol(meaning literally unseen, the grave), Hades(also means literally unseen, the Greek translation of sheol which again means the grave), Gehenna(the valley of Hinnom, a place on earth), and Tartaroo(the Greek prison of the demigods, the Hebrew equivalent to the prison of fallen angels). All these words are translated as hell(a term taken from Nordic mythology, hel was the daughter of loki and the sister of fenrir the wolf) in the KJV etc ... Jesus spoke of Geheena in reference to the actual valley of Hinnom which at his time was literally ablaze at all times where the bodies of the dead who where dishonored where literally cast, instead of being entombed, as a sign of being banished from the face of God. However Christ referred to it in the mindset of the Hebrew people who he was speking to. They had already through the sect of the Pharisees determined that there was a hell in the afterlife because of the Zoroastrian influence which the Parsiis had on the pharisees during and after the Babylonian captivity. The pharisees used the concept of hell and the literal Gehenna as a control measure over the profane masses of the Hebrew people(that is Why Christ blamed them for spiritual excess and extortion. The pharisees were excessively condemning and legalistic, and they used an excessive account of the judgments of God to extort the people over whom they ruled, Mat 23:25). The Hebrews were afraid of the Pharisees power to deem them unworthy of the resurrection by throwing them into the fires of the valley of Hinnom. Jesus made reference to how the Pharisees could only kill the body, but that only God could allow their souls to be destroyed. When Jesus spoke of how it was better to cut off the member of the body that led one into sin than to be cast into the valley of Hinnom which is what the Hebrew people feared above all deaths. The point he was making is that the law could not save men from sin because sin was in the very members of the body(romans 7). He was making the point they needed a savior to redeem them because the Law only served to condemn man for his sinful nature. All these things have been wrongly understood as referring to an after life torture pit.
Next we have the words everlasting and eternal and for ever and ever etc ... Which in no way fit either the original meanings of the Hebrew and Greek words thus translated(olam and aion/aionios/aionion), nor the context in which they are found within scripture. These words are mistranslated so as to cause the English bible to teach something that was originally foreign to the gospel. Eternal damnation. The Words olam and aion mean cycle or age. Olam literally means beyond the horizon, while aion literally means incessant(as in recycling) being(as in "he is BEING stupid") according to the etymology of the word by Socrates(who was not known to have been a great etymologist). The word aion is the Greek equivalent of Olam and is used in the scriptures as the greek translation of olam, and should not be understood in any way outside of the Hebrew understanding of the olam). The new testament though the earliest extant manuscripts found are penned in The koine Greek language, nevertheless it was the Hebrew mind from when the Gospel derived and not the Greek mind.
Perhaps if you would have been studying the Young's literal translation or the concordant translation of the bible you would not have come to so many fallacious conclusions concerning the doctrines put forth by Christ and his disciples. It is necessary to understand the history of the Hebrew people very well, as well as spiritual climate that the new testament was written in in order to understand the proper message of the gospel. Not to mention to have a good understanding of the Hebrew belief system and how it developed over a period of time until the time of Christ, when it had become completely overrun by pagan(Persian and especially Babylonian) mystery traditions. Reading the bible alone in its contemporary form of translation is not conducive to a proper understanding of the gospel. There is allot of history that can be studied concerning the early church fathers and their views on universal
reconciliation, if you would just take the time to study the writings and history of the early church.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-31-2009 at 03:14 PM..
JESUS told about a wealthy man who died and went to hell. There was fire there as is evident in the scripture. The wealthy man said to Abraham that he was tormented in the flames and requested water.
I believe the Word of JESUS and am sure that hell is hot.
That was a parable that jesus taught! he used abrahams name as a "symbol" of a place of bliss! Fire is just a "symbol" of inflictions...where a persons soul is full of darkness, like. anger, lust of any kind, addictions, greed, hatred..etc!
You won't find anywhere in the scriptures that God formed or created hell!
Hi this passage does not say the death is everlasting or eternal. The literal translation is that is for or to the ages of the ages. According to 1 Cor. 15, death is to be abolished. I believe that the lake of fire has a higher purpose leading to the eventual restoration of all to God. The scriptures say that He will make all things new, and nothing is excluded from this. Another passage which speaks to the promise of restoration of all is found in Romans 8: 18-21. . There is nothing in the scriptures which say that the lake of fire exists outside of the creation. God bless.
Rev. 20 10and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. 11And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; 12and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works; 13and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; 14and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; 15and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire (YLT)
Death is to be abolished. But this passage refers to the second death in the Lake of Fire. And it says that this fire, this second death, is eternal, in verse 10. But this isn't the only verse in the Bible which says this. Would you like the complete list of verses?
I find it hard to believe that your interpretation of scripture is not influenced by any sources extra-biblical...
snip, snip for brevity
...Perhaps if you would have been studying the Young's literal translation or the concordant translation of the bible you would not have come to so many fallacious conclusions concerning the doctrines put forth by Christ and his disciples. ...
... Reading the bible alone in its contemporary form of translation is not conducive to a proper understanding of the gospel. There is a lot of history that can be studied concerning the early church fathers and their views on universal reconciliation, if you would just take the time to study the writings and history of the early church.
My Christian beliefs are not influenced by anything extra Biblical, or by the doctrines of a church. I base my beliefs on what the Bible says in totality, leaving open the possibility that I will be further enlightened in the future. After 300+ readings of the NT, I am still constantly finding new nuggets of truth.
You need not assume however, that I am unfamiliar with concordances. Or that I've never studied the history of the early church. It is always dangerous, I think, to jump to conclusions about what your opponent knows. It's better to question carefully and draw the opponent into the open unawares. Otherwise, you risk appearing anxious to coerce capitulation through intimidation. Fortunately, I am not easily intimidated, because I know the Bible backwards, forwards and sideways. And I also know how to defend my faith with confident humility.
It would be impossible to prove that reading the Bible in its contemporary form is "not conducive" to a proper understanding. Especially given the fact that the Bible is best understood the help of the Holy Spirit. The early church fathers were no more or less naturally attuned to the Gospels than I am. And they differed from one another widely on a variety of issues. Starting from the differences between Paul and Peter and building on from there to major heresies of every stripe by the 6th century. The early church was as wide and varied in its orthodoxies and unorthodoxies as the modern church, mitigated of course by the relative population of then vs. now. But they were hobbled by the relative inavailability of printed texts, and by a narrower range of scholastic voice. In fact, many of the greatest scholars, thinkers and philosophers who've ever lived may be lost to history. What we know of the early church fathers from extant documents is probably only 5 percent of the total knowledge ever available. And of that 5 percent, I would be dubious of the purity of their motives.
I don't think my conclusions are fallacious, given that many of my own independently reached conclusions happen, coincidentally enough, to mesh with orthodoxies, at least regarding the existence of eternal damnation.
In other times I do not agree with common precepts. Pretribulationism, for instance. I often tell those who adhere to that unscriptural doctrine that noone believes it strictly from reading the Bible. They have to be told the doctrine is there, shown how what they read with their own eyes actually means something different, and then carefully schooled on its particulars. Noone can be a pretribber on their own effort.
At any rate, you cannot show me from the Bible what these myriad "fallacious doctrines" are that I adhere to. To do so, you must resort to extra Biblical appeals to do so. And assert my inability to understand that what I am reading is not really what I am reading.
You cannot make the case for universal reconciliation from the Bible and do it with airtight cohesiveness, in any translation including ones produced prior to the KJV. You couldn't make it in the original Hebrew/Greek.
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