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If you are trully serious VP than you would not be calling anyone Nicene. We do not follow them we follow who they followed, the Holy Spirit.
No offense, but I am talking about the Nicene Creed:
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I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
This, aside from the "one holy catholic and apostolic church" is what the Nicene Christians believe. If you believe this, even without the "one church" part, than you are a Nicene.
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If I recall the Gospel of Thomas claims Mary will become a man. Now that sounds like a myth.
No, this is metaphor. What it says is:
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Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."
Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
-Gospel of Thomas, 144
BUT, before that, Christ said:
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Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."
They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?"
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."
Gospel of Thomas, 22
What is being said here is that to enter the Kingdom of heaven one must transcend being male and female, and that we should intergrate all levels of being into one and be "like babies" in the sense that we are pure, clean, and empty all but the "milk" of the word of GOD.
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The problem with the Gnostic writings is that they do not line up with the OT, which Christ confirmed as being from God when He said they spoke of Him.
That is because Christ was not the messiah, and the OT (except Psalms and Proverbs) are all about Satan, the Creator, aka Yahwah.
Christ was not the messiah of Judaism...
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'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.'
Deuteronomy, 18:18-20
Now, Christ referred to his GOD not as "the lord" alone but as "the heavenly father"...show me one place in the OT where anyone called Yahwah "the heavenly father". No one did until Christ came.
So, he is not using the name of the lord yahwah, and is calling himself god, hence speaking of a "false god"...ohh, and he died! According to the OT, he was a false prophet.
Also...
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And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.
Isiah 2:4, on the Jewish messiah..and what did our lord and LIBERATOR Christ say?
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Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword! I came to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Matthew 10:34-35
Now, if Christ was the messiah of the Jews, than why did he say he would do the exact opposite of what Isiah prophesied the messiah would do?
And then there's...
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'Behold, a son will be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies on every side; for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days.
"peace and quiet to Isreal in his days?" When Christ was around, was there peace and quiet in Isreal? NO! They were under Roman occupation!
Also, in Ezekiel 40, it says that the Messiah will rebuild the temple...what happened to the temple after Christ was crucified?
Christ was not the messiah of the Jews. He was not the son of the god of the Jews, our creator, Yahwah aka Yaldabaoth aka Satan. He was the father of the heavenly father which came before the cruel idoit creator and he came to give us wisdom to set us free.
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Now another thing against the Gnostics is where the Lord declared He would use the foolish things of this world to stump the wise.
I don't believe everything the Nicean creed says Mccoy so I am not sure I should continue this discussion as I don't meet your criteria for discussion.
Specifically I do not believe the part below....
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I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
Also the creed doesn't say this but to be sure you understand where I am coming from I do not believe that the phrase "And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church" refers to the Roman Catholic Church.
Let me know if you still want to discuss things with me and I will continue otherwise....I will gracefully bow out of this thread.
You do appear quite knowledgable. But that should come as no surprise since gnostic is derived from the word knowledge,
and your's is a salvation by knowledge.
Well, thank you for the complement, but you have made a common mistake. "Gnosis" translates to something more than book knowledge, but more is like a "learned understanding". Salvation comes from understaning through doing, and what we do is learn and live the teachings of Jesus Christ.
By living the word, we understand the word, and then we become one with the word, and we become one with Christ and our Heavenly Father and achieve salvation.
Study all you want, but like learning to drive, when the drivers manual isn't enough and you have to get on the road sooner or later to really learn Gnosis is something that can only be learned by doing and not just reading.
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Do you favor any particular school of gnosticsm
ie: Syrian, Hellenistic. Alexandrain, Dualistic, Antinomian?
Well, Gnostics are always Dualistic. There is the heavenly father, and the cruel demiurge.
I am simply a Christian Gnostic, and I follow all the gospels wether they were used by the Sethians, the Valetians, the Simmonians etc.
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You mention the Gospel of Thomas ( not to be confused with the Acts of Thomas )
Do you also subscribe to these as well?
The Gospel of Peter
The Gospel of Mathias
Gospel of Phillip
The Gospel according to the Egyptians
Acts of Andrew
Acts of John
I follow those works of the Nag Hammadi Library, of which the Gospel of Phillip, Gospel of the Egyptians, Gospel of Truth, and the Gospel of Mary were included, as well as On the Origins of the world, the Reality of the Rulers, the Three Steles of Seth, the Apocalypse of Adam, etc, as well as the Pistis Sophia.
I don't believe everything the Nicean creed says Mccoy so I am not sure I should continue this discussion as I don't meet your criteria for discussion.
Specifically I do not believe the part below....
Okay, fine, I concede that point. What I am talking about is the first part, which talks about the nature of god and Christ. The first four paragraphs sum up what most people feel is the only Christianity, although there are those who disagree, like the Jahovah's witnesses
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we believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets
Do you argee with the above statement? If so, than you are a old-school orthodox Christian, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE MODERN CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX church. Back in the day, people who believed the above were in the orthodox camp of Christianity.
That is what I am talking about, and that is what I do not believe as of now.
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I believe...in one GOD worthy of worship, the GOD above this world, from which came Sophia, the wisdom of GOD, who by her own folly created the archons who would become gods, and the greatest of them all, the blind child god, Yaldabaoth, the devil.
I believe that for her penance, Sophia, the wisdom of GOD, breathed into humanity a piece of GOD, the Pneuma, and from time to time she has sent prophets into the this the fallen world to awaken that inner spark, the greatest of whom was Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of the GOD, the heavenly Father, who came to Earth to give us women and men wisdom so that we might never taste death.
^ that is what makes me a heretic, and that is what the "lost" gospels teach me. Majority of the Christians I run into do not believe that, and instead, believe in the first part of the nicene creed. that is what I am referring to.
Let's assume for a moment that God created us...and when I say God I mean whatever or whomever you understand God to be unless I say otherwise....
Does it stand to reason that our morality is superior to God's?
Is the morality in that which is created superior to that in it's Creator?
That makes absolutely no sense Mccoy.
What if a child who is good has a parent who is bad? What if Ghandi's father was a child molesting serial killer. Wouldn't Ghandi's morality be superior to his fathers, even though he created him?
I mean, it would make logical sense that a creator would be older and have greater understanding of morality, but looking at the world and the way it is, I see no proof of that.
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No logical, spiritual, or rational sense that the thing created is superior in some way, in this case morally, to the one Creating.
Back to the argument of Ghandi's hypothetical psychotic father.
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Is there anything in nature, history, or otherwise that would lead one to believe such a thing? Is anything man creates superior to man for example? If there isn't any such example
...is it not blind faith to believe that the thing created is superior to God in some aspect?
Your further thoughts if you please.
There are people out there who take "crazy" vows never to harm anything. There are zen buddhist monks who sleep with covers over their mouths to avoid eating an insect in their sleep and never own anything and give all their money to the poor.
Compare that with...
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He (the god of the Jews) says, "You are My war-club, My weapon of war; And with you I shatter nations, And with you I destroy kingdoms.
-Jeremiah 51:20
Also, if god is morally superior to us, then why is it that he gives us all these rules that he himself does not follow? He gives us orders, many of which make no sense ( I like pork thank you...) and yet he himself lies (Genesis 22 1:-24) and kills? (exodus 12:37-42)
If he is morally superior, then why doesn't he hold onto his own laws? What, is what's good enough for us his creations not good enough for him?
What if a child who is good has a parent who is bad? What if Ghandi's father was a child molesting serial killer. Wouldn't Ghandi's morality be superior to his fathers, even though he created him?
Ghandi's father was not a child molesting serial killer. The fact is that no child created by a father ends up naturally having a superior morality to the father in the absence of external influences (such as from the mother or teachers or other person) that might make him or her superior in morality or any other respect.
A child's morality is a product of the influences brought to bear upon that child. If they are good...the child will likely develop with good morals. If they are bad the child will develop with bad morals.
Jesus said as much when He said....
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Matthew 7:16
...Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
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There are people out there who take "crazy" vows never to harm anything. There are zen buddhist monks who sleep with covers over their mouths to avoid eating an insect in their sleep and never own anything and give all their money to the poor.
Compare that with...
-Jeremiah 51:20
You cannot understand God Mccoy if you cannot bring yourself to admit the most fundamental thing about God. That He is superior in every respect to you, me, or any other created being.
If you cannot get past that point there is no reason to continue this discussion. For in every case that which is created, you...will be predisposed to judge that which is God.
Which in effect would render you a God. Your own God. Such that nothing I say or that is said in the Bible or that should be naturally obvious (i.e. that God is superior as a fundamental characteristic of who He is) will make any difference. For in the final analysis you and you alone will remain in a position to determine what is acceptable about God or not.
A position that is completely unassailable. A position that no argument can topple you from. A position that cannot be contradicted. No matter the nature of any argument brought to bear upon your position as your own God.
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Also, if god is morally superior to us, then why is it that he gives us all these rules that he himself does not follow? He gives us orders, many of which make no sense ( I like pork thank you...) and yet he himself lies (Genesis 22 1:-24) and kills? (exodus 12:37-42)
If he is morally superior, then why doesn't he hold onto his own laws? What, is what's good enough for us his creations not good enough for him?
Your questions here assume by implication that God is inferior and are asked from the position which I said that you place yourself in. Namely an unassailable position of believing that you, as a created being, can judge God.
A position that will not allow me to say anything that will make any difference. Because the God I serve would cause you to see that you are most definitely inferior to Him in every way. Something your present viewpoint will not allow.
No offense, but I am talking about the Nicene Creed:
This, aside from the "one holy catholic and apostolic church" is what the Nicene Christians believe. If you believe this, even without the "one church" part, than you are a Nicene.
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No, I am a Christian who follows the oldest writings that have little to do with the Nicenes. I may agree with some of their creed but I need no creed.
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What is being said here is that to enter the Kingdom of heaven one must transcend being male and female, and that we should intergrate all levels of being into one and be "like babies" in the sense that we are pure, clean, and empty all but the "milk" of the word of GOD.
Jesus says similar within the Bible when speaking to the Pharasee Nicodemus.
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That is because Christ was not the messiah, and the OT (except Psalms and Proverbs) are all about Satan, the Creator, aka Yahwah.
Christ was not the messiah of Judaism...
I am sorry but this is false. Gnosticism has conflicted with Judaism before Christianity and has all but died out numerous times. It has only made a resurgence in the past 100 years to fulfill prophecy concerning false teachings and a great turning away.
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Now, Christ referred to his GOD not as "the lord" alone but as "the heavenly father"...show me one place in the OT where anyone called Yahwah "the heavenly father". No one did until Christ came.
This is irrelevant but I will look into it.
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So, he is not using the name of the lord yahwah, and is calling himself god, hence speaking of a "false god"...ohh, and he died! According to the OT, he was a false prophet.
Not since He rose on the third day.
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Isiah 2:4, on the Jewish messiah..and what did our lord and LIBERATOR Christ say?
Isaiah 2:4 is yet to come and Jesus confimred this prophecy.
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Matthew 10:34-35
Now, if Christ was the messiah of the Jews, than why did he say he would do the exact opposite of what Isiah prophesied the messiah would do?
You really need to read more than a few verses taken out of context. Try reading the whole chapter surrounding a verse and perhaps you will get a better idea and see more of a connection.
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"peace and quiet to Isreal in his days?" When Christ was around, was there peace and quiet in Isreal? NO! They were under Roman occupation!
Peaceful occupation.
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Also, in Ezekiel 40, it says that the Messiah will rebuild the temple...what happened to the temple after Christ was crucified?
This has not come yet.
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Christ was not the messiah of the Jews. He was not the son of the god of the Jews, our creator, Yahwah aka Yaldabaoth aka Satan. He was the father of the heavenly father which came before the cruel idoit creator and he came to give us wisdom to set us free.
Read John 1:1, it blows your theory right out of the water.
VP,
I think CG is a very interesting attempt to make some sense of the evil and suffering in the world. I assume you left the Wiccan system because it's scope was too limited?
The main problem I have with the Gnostic view is the lack of any really omniscient omnipotent God as it portrays the heavenly Father in some sort of dilemma which keeps Him from intervening to stop the madness here. I understand the view and the philosophical problems inherent with omnipotence and the existence of evil.
Orthodox Christianity by and large deals with this by exalting the virtues of 'free-will', ie: that God has chosen to let man's free-will run it's course and thus all the evil and suffering. You make a great point that suffering would exist even if man were not here, but the counter argument is that the fall and subsequent corruption happened because of man's free will.
The matrix is a fascinating series and for sure there is truth in the Gnostic view of this temporal realm not being the 'real' reality. The Bible speaks of this as the seen world being temporal while the unseen world is eternal.
There are other strands of Christianity which you may consider because, to be honest, the Gnostic view as a whole seems to be just as far fetched as the literalist fundamentalist view. They both make fabulous science fiction stories but have little bearing on reality IMO.
The Gnostic view actually is very similar to my pre-Christian/pre-atheist view that the creator of all this mess MUST be really whack.
Then I learned that God, the Creator of all, who is perfect light and love has allowed the opposite of His core nature to exist for a season. This is the valley of the shadow of death where we learn to overcome evil with perfect love. Is it worth it? The apostle Paul puts it this way "For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us".
So that is the pattern here - suffering followed by glory which is incomparable to the glory.
You may want to investigate Christian universalism or Christian Panentheism. Biblical Panentheism: God in all things
"The Gospel of John reveals that Christ is identified not only as Jesus on earth, but as the whole creative and redemptive movement of God throughout space and time. Thus, Christ is the Word which brings everything into existence (1:2-3), the Light that enlightens all humanity, (1:9) the Bread of God that sustains all life, (6:33) and much more".
VP, if there IS a movement which is successfully exposing the 'matrix' (AKA: world system) for what it is AND has the power to obliterate it I assume you would want to join that movement?
I admit that I don't know the Gnostic view in depth - just the basics.
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Now, if Christ was the messiah of the Jews, than why did he say he would do the exact opposite of what Isiah prophesied the messiah would do? 
