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Originally Posted by wilvan I believe in God, accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, obey the 10 Commandments... but I don't belong to any church or denomination. My belief based on what I read in the Bible is that when we die we are unconscious until the resurrection. Nowhere in the Bible can you find the dead immediately goes to heaven or a burning "hell." The word "hell" simply means the grave. On the contrary, the Bible says the dead knows nothing. When Jesus raised Lazarus from death, it was like he was awakened from a deep sleep; in fact he did not give any fantastic account of an afterlife.
In REV 20 is John's vision of the future final resurrection of all humans in the Great White Throne Judgment. I believe the babies/fetus, the insane, the retarded, et.al., will be resurrected and have a chance to learn the truth (Books were opened)... they have free will and therefore will be given the choice to choose eternal life or death. At that time there will be rebels who will reject God even when they come face to face with him. God will never impose on anyone to live his way of love, peace, and cooperation... some will choose eternal death just like the unbelievers now in this World... whose names are not written in another book, the Book of Life.
_______________________ REV 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Is this the post you were looking for?
EJ, I can't speak for Will, but here is my guess... I think he wasn't referring to rev 20:11 as you cite, but rather verse 9. Observe:
(“And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.” Revelation 20:9, NASB)
Last edited by GordonWayneWatts; 01-27-2010 at 09:16 PM..
Reason: fix formatting more etc + I put in prior parts of the conversation for context
you ask: "So based on your comments, you believe that the following:"
answer: yes, but God's knowledge does not preclude, cancel, annul, or abrogate our free will.
Can you show me the verses where free will is mentioned or alluded to in the New Testament?
Quote:
Anyone who goes to hell, CHOOSES to go there. no one is twisting their arm, so they are without excuse. (God will, as some have said, give ALL a chance to chose -yes, even the little babies to whom *some* would deny such a choice. -LOL)
I realise it looks a little off-centre, but that's the full-colour reply for ease of emphasis & to look cool & have something to look back on later as not only educational & polite, but also 'fun'.
So you admit that God created some people knowing beforehand that His creation of them was going to result in them going to be tormented in Hell for the rest of eternity, correct?
Can you show me the verses where free will is mentioned or alluded to in the New Testament?
So you admit that God created some people knowing beforehand that His creation of them was going to result in them going to be tormented in Hell for the rest of eternity, correct?
So, are you suggesting that God would deny you your Free Will to chose where to go for all eternity?
Think of it this way -to help put a picture to my words:
Let's say that you are 12 or 13 years old, and the judge asks you whether you want to be adopted into a family to avoid living on the street -and you (by your Free Will) say 'yes' --then, you are effectively and legally *born* into the family (adopted, yes, but born, surely).
Then, your adopted father and mother would consider you their "real" son, not merely their "step" son, with me so far?
So, if you wanted to "un-adopt" yourself, your parents would surely fight with you on this, and do everything they could to make you feel welcome into the family, BUT (and here's the catch!), do you REALLY think THEY would deny you your Free Will?
No - and how much less the Just and Fair Creator of the Universe?
Your implication that God would deny you you free will is therefore incorrect.
(-: "I am FLASH GORDON, and I approve this message," he heh... :-)
So, are you suggesting that God would deny you your Free Will to chose where to go for all eternity?
I'm saying that God will respect my Free will as much as He respected Pharoh's will to not let the Israelites go. Or Paul's will to persecute Christians. So does that mean He will take away choice - no. It means He is forcing our choice. Why do you think you live at all before you die?
Quote:
Think of it this way -to help put a picture to my words:
Let's say that you are 12 or 13 years old, and the judge asks you whether you want to be adopted into a family to avoid living on the street -and you (by your Free Will) say 'yes' --then, you are effectively and legally *born* into the family (adopted, yes, but born, surely).
Then, your adopted father and mother would consider you their "real" son, not merely their "step" son, with me so far?
So, if you wanted to "un-adopt" yourself, your parents would surely fight with you on this, and do everything they could to make you feel welcome into the family, BUT (and here's the catch!), do you REALLY think THEY would deny you your Free Will?
No - and how much less the Just and Fair Creator of the Universe?
Your implication that God would deny you you free will is therefore incorrect.
(-: "I am FLASH GORDON, and I approve this message," he heh... :-)
No think of it like this analogy, would you trust the free will of your toddler that decides it wants to go into the busy street and play?
I'm saying that God will respect my Free will as much as He respected Pharoh's will to not let the Israelites go. Or Paul's will to persecute Christians. So does that mean He will take away choice - no. It means He is forcing our choice. Why do you think you live at all before you die?
No think of it like this analogy, would you trust the free will of your toddler that decides it wants to go into the busy street and play?
""He is forcing our choice.""
GW: That is a contradiction of terms, and thus illogical: If he forces it, then it is not a choice; conversely, if it is a choice, it is not forced, but rather a free will volition choice of yours. Don't cop out and pretend you have no choice.
""would you trust the free will of your toddler that decides it wants to go into the busy street and play?""
GW: That is an unequal parable or bad comparison: A toddler is not old enough to make a choice: You and I are; now, with the babies that die before knowing how to make a choice, I feel it most logical (and scriptural) to assume they are allowed to grow up (possibly in a section of heaven --possibly in the millennium) FIRST and THEN be allowed to make an informed choice.
I am 7th Day Church Of God. ( not 7th day Adventist) I know that what I will post will not be accepted by some. With the Bible telling me that (all) who will enter the Kingdom of God will have to confess Jesus as the Christ. Bibies and little children have not had this opportunity, but I believe they will. They will be resurrected and given a chance at a time future to know and to understand God and His son.
They to will be trained to be Kings and Priests in Gods Kingdom and to continue to help in the future creation process.
I am 7th Day Church Of God. ( not 7th day Adventist) I know that what I will post will not be accepted by some. With the Bible telling me that (all) who will enter the Kingdom of God will have to confess Jesus as the Christ. Bibies and little children have not had this opportunity, but I believe they will. They will be resurrected and given a chance at a time future to know and to understand God and His son.
They to will be trained to be Kings and Priests in Gods Kingdom and to continue to help in the future creation process.
Your analysis looks very correct, Freeman, and, in fact, it seems to agree with the analysis of this theologian: I will quote a small portion and then cite my source:
Where do babies go when they die?Heaven??Hell!
NO! -Wrong on both counts...
"...Many more well-meaning Christians (the vast majority, it seems) make the 'Politically Correct'[but totally wrong!!] claim that babies who die before the age of accountability go to HEAVEN,..." (My additional comments in bold-faced green and in brackets above)
I don't quote it in its entirety to respect copyright, in compliance with the Terms of Service on this board, but here it the source if you wish to investigate it further:
I am 7th Day Church Of God. ( not 7th day Adventist) I know that what I will post will not be accepted by some. With the Bible telling me that (all) who will enter the Kingdom of God will have to confess Jesus as the Christ. Bibies and little children have not had this opportunity, but I believe they will. They will be resurrected and given a chance at a time future to know and to understand God and His son.
They to will be trained to be Kings and Priests in Gods Kingdom and to continue to help in the future creation process.
Since you seem to be 100% correct, and I have (in prior posts) supported your position, I would like to know what scriptural bases you posit as your proof; I personally prefer John 14:6 to show the negative to the prevailing view and the Millennium passages to put forth an alternative -but that is the short version. Thx in advance for your take.
Last edited by GordonWayneWatts; 01-29-2010 at 06:21 AM..
Reason: spelling
I believe the passage in Rev. Ch 20: 5;5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection".
When it states "This is the first resurrection" is talking about rev 20:verse 4; "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".
Then it tells us that the rest of the dead were not resurrected until after the Thousand years were finished. I believe this to be those that will be given a chance for salvation.
GW: That is a contradiction of terms, and thus illogical: If he forces it, then it is not a choice; conversely, if it is a choice, it is not forced, but rather a free will volition choice of yours. Don't cop out and pretend you have no choice.
""would you trust the free will of your toddler that decides it wants to go into the busy street and play?""
GW: That is an unequal parable or bad comparison: A toddler is not old enough to make a choice: You and I are; now, with the babies that die before knowing how to make a choice, I feel it most logical (and scriptural) to assume they are allowed to grow up (possibly in a section of heaven --possibly in the millennium) FIRST and THEN be allowed to make an informed choice.
Not a contradiction, you still make a choice. Didn'tPharoh make a choice? Wasn't he still forced to make the choice that God wanted him to make in letting the Israelites go?
As for as the analogy of the toddler, if you don't think it fair enough then tell me how fair is it for Carnal man to be counted on to choose God in order to be saved? Did you not read that before we are spiritual we are carnal and if we are carnal we hate God. So how it, that you think that which hates God shall choose Him? And if that heart can choose God then what was wrong with that heart that God says we need another?
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you don't see the picture, Tre: let me draw it.
